Concept of God: Osho, Islam, Zakir Naik and the Acid Test
October 25, 2007
First, this is a long article and second I am not a follower of Osho Rajneesh. But I have admired his works and I stop my admiration when the symptoms of greed and materialism becomes evident in his teachings. I like religious, secular and spiritual leaders who have a strong sense of humanism, individuality and service and I felt Rajneesh although he had a strong empathetic social consciousness he never did any practical welfare work for the betterment of society. Rajneesh despite his deep insights into the human condition became a victim of greed and got cut off from the world by his solipsistic tendencies. He eventually became an Ivory tower philosopher albeit an intelligent and colorful one. I have loved reading especially his discourses on the diverse mystical traditions of the world. I also admire his talent of public speaking and his irreverence to religious and political authority. Osho had the guts to critically examine hallowed and respected ideas and people. On most occasions in his public life he exhibited sound reasoning and conveyed extraordinary insights into the human condition.
I recently happened to bump across a website about an Islamic speaker Dr. Zakir Naik and his talks on the concept of God in different religions. Zakir Naik also had a dialogue with the popular self help guru Sri Sri Ravishankar. Although it was termed a dialogue, it turned out to be more of a debate with Zakir Naik pronouncing his typical clichéd Islamic rhetoric with a full fledged debunking of polytheists and idol worshippers. Zakir Naik also picked on Sri Sri Ravishankar for publishing a book on comparative Islam and Hinduism. This book had Sri Sri Ravishankar comparing some Islamic ideas and concepts and claiming that it originated from Hindu culture. Sri Sri Ravishankar not anticipating the confrontation tried to play it down and looked like he wanted to rush back to the cave in his Ashram. He also was openly apologetic about the publication of this book and tried to escape from the awkward situation by claiming that this book was printed in a hurry and it was written with an intent of bringing the two religious communities closer in the context of a Muslim-Hindu riot. He also pledged that he would not allow printing of further copies of the book.
Sri Sri Ravishankar is not generally known for his discursive thinking and intellect and his big strength is his emotional appeal to people based on personal charisma and the excellent PR machinery of his organization. Many a times he has goofed up on public platforms. I had once attended a seminar on ‘Science and Conciousness’ in the Indian Institute of Science and evidenced first hand Sri Sri Ravishankar talking utterly irrelevant things. The other eminent speakers on the podium like the Nobel Laureate Charles Townes (inventor of the laser and maser), the mathematician Roger Penrose and Zoologist Jane Goodall were visibly disturbed by his lack of erudition and grasp of what was being talked about. Sri Sri Ravishankar was also rubbished on stage by the renowned artist and film script writer Javed Akthar. On another occassion Sri Sri wrote an article in a national newspaper comparing Marxism with the teachings of the Bhagwad Gita. He was again rubbished by a lot of readers for his utter lack of understanding of the ‘Dialectical Materialism’ of Marx (he was not aware and never even mentioned anything about this in the article) or the Vedantic teachings of Bhagvad Gita. He was just content in stating simplistic homilies.
Coming back to the the ‘Concept of God’ dialogue, Sri Sri Ravishankar completely misjudged the tenor of the whole programme. The audience were predominantly Muslim and were asking well orchestrated and pre-determined questions which I thought came from the medieval missionary polemic against Hinduism. It took sometime for me to realize that at this age and time there are still majority of the people who do fervently believe in such religious jingoism.Sri Sri Ravishankar’s soft stand and unwillingness to debate and confront put him in an awkward position in the programme.
Zakir Naik is well versed in the art of islamic rhetoric and he is quite capable of mesmerizing his Muslim and other unthinking audiences into deception with confusing, illogical and fallacious arguments. Herd instinct is clearly evident in his followers. He makes up for his lack of critical thinking, scientific and rational sense by parroting and quoting by memory verses from religious books and scriptures by their chapter, page, verse and line numbers. This is taken as a sign of scholarship by his flock. He usually receives standing ovation from the Muslim audience whenever he indulges in these theatrics.
My amusement in this debate became more acute when the debater Zakir Naik put poor Osho Rajneesh to the Islamic litmus test, Surah Ikhlas or the touchstone of islamic theology. This Quranic verse or Sura mentions that God is without equal, without origin, without end, and unlike anything else that exists. This is the definition of Allah in the Quran and every other concept of God is weighed against this to create a semantic game to establish that this concept of god is the supreme most. Rajneesh had no defenders in there so it was an one sided debate with the final judgement of fallibility on Osho pronounced by Zakir Naik. Sri Sri Ravishankar was also apologetic about Rajneesh and he appealed to the audience not to judge other holy men like himself using Rajneesh as the yard stick.
In this article I am trying to defend Rajneesh and eastern traditions against the polemics of the Islamic theologians. My intention of writing this article is because it is clear to me that the worldview and the value system espoused by Osho Rajneesh is far advanced and higher as compared to the value system of the old religions in general and Islam in specific. Rajneesh believed in peace, love, celebration, individuality, freedom of speech and enquiry. He encouraged people to challenge archaic values and traditions. His overall value system is quite humanistic, secular and rational as compared to the narrow parochial values espoused in religions like Islam.
Our scholar Zakir Naik begins his diatribe against Osho Rajneesh with the tone of abhorrence to the Indian godmen and pronounces his judgement before explaining the targeted person’s point of view. Picking Rajneesh is kind of very funny because Rajneesh believed in what can be called a Vedantic or quasi pantheistic God. He borderlined on atheism many times. Rajneesh’s god as can be evidenced from his voluminous discourses is akin to Spinoza’s god to some extent. Osho’s God is not the Allah or a personal God at all, and his system provides no reason for the revelatory status of the Bible or Quran or Vedas or of any religion for that matter. Osho identifies his concept of God with Nature and like Spinoza he employed a reductionist scientism while retaining some traditional eastern terminology. Zakir Naik claims himself to be a student of comparative religion but it is plainly obvious that his knowledge of the Eastern religions is very very superficial and about Osho, he believes what he wants to believe rather than what the Oshoietes or Hindus or Buddhists or Taoists or Jains believe. Also to put things in perspective, although Rajneesh’s worldview is quite similar to Hindu, Buddhist & Taoist worldview he never claimed to be a Hindu either by birth or by conviction. He was born a Jain and remained an eclectic. So to pick on him in a debate on the concept of God in Hinduism and Islam is in the first place wrong. Zakir Naik’s claim that the followers of Osho Rajneesh called him almighty god shows his profound ignorance of Osho Rajneesh, his followers and his teaching and also his ignorance of the concept of god in eastern traditions.
The Islamic religion like Christianity and Judaism is based on man’s blind and obedient response to a divine revelation in the form of a book, the Quran. Quran is a medieval text inspired by the arabic god Allah to his last and final messenger Muhammad. The god of Islam is in principle similar to a Monarch who creates and rules the world with a set of laws. The concept of God in Islam is of a God who is apart from the universe and who is a skillful maker of the world. This God stands apart from the world and like a medieval monarch rules the incidents of the world and judges you on the judgement day based on the code of conduct as created in the holy book. You are sent to either heaven or hell based on your submission to the will of Allah and the adherence to the code of conduct as depicted in the Quran. Allah in Islam has no form or can never be depicted. However Allah is depicted through similes and metaphors like Allah is Akbar, ie great or Allah is Rahman or compassionate. The not so subtle Islamic theologians fail to grasp that even ‘figures’ of speech are depictions and are a form of idolatry. Idolatry is very much existent in Islam although in a veiled format. Islam is replete with symbols which are held sacrosanct and any blasphemy to those symbols are not treated kindly by the Muslim diaspora around the world. It is sacrilegious in Islam to picturize or idolize God but the attachment to symbols is quite evident in Islam and it is much more than what is present in the so called condemned pagan idolatrous religions. For example the Islamic prayer is only in Arabic it cant be localized in any other languages. All muslims bow their heads towards mecca for their prayer. Allah is an extremely localized god. So to compare a localized god with localized rituals to the concept of Vedantic Brahman which has no name, form and which permeates all existence is like as they say comparing chalk with cheese. The Islamic scholars are morbidly against idolatry in other religions but the mote in their own eye they seeth not.
Zakir Naik’s claim that Muslims are the culmination of Vedantic teachings of non idolatry is ridiculous to say the least. The intent of the Vedantic assertion about the sadhaka or the person on the vedantic path leaving behind all the idols and symbols means the sacrifice and trancendence of all those constructs of thought like symbols, idols and ideologies to realize the unconditioned consciousness, the eternal which can never be limited by thought which is just memory and the past. In the early part of the previous century people witnessed an enlightened person Baghwan Ramana Maharishi who had no need for any rituals, images, symbols or holy texts and he abided all the time in his true nature which is pure consciousness. When Vedantists talk about the culmination or the embodiment of their tradition they refer to a person like Ramana Maharishi. I wonder what the Muslim practice of non-idolatry has got to do with this state. This clearly shows that self proclaimed scholars like Zakir Naik have absolutely no clue about what Vedanta is all about. His understanding of Vedanta is totally flawed and he is content in just picking up those verses from the Upanishads and Bhagwad Gita which depict the (so called) monotheistic principle of Brahman and which is in some ways similar to the concept of Allah. There is a huge difference between the Monism (even dualism or qualified monism) of the Vedanta to the monotheistic belief in a Sky God like Allah. Monism is the acknowledgement of oneness of the universal principle of consciousness or Brahman.
What is the concept of god according to Vedanta. The Upanishads talk of Brahman as Sat-Chit-Ananda which is truth-consciousness-bliss. The Brahman is both unmanifest and manifest as Brahman or God has to be inclusive of everything. It is both Nirguna and Saguna. It has qualities and no qualities. There is a dialectical process of reasoning which is employed to express the inexpressible quality of Brahman or God. Essentially Brahman is the substratum of all that exists and being the substratum it is also different from all that exists. There is a trancendent quality of Brahman which is in some way similar to the monotheistic God. But the Upanishads are unequivocal in their claim that language fails to describe Brahman which is infinite (Anantha) and therefore it is depicted by dialectic reasoning like ‘It is far and it is near, it is the lowest and it is the highest’. There are many extremely poetic verses in the Vedantic texts which describe the dialectic ‘qualities’ of Brahman.
Zakir Naik states that “The major difference between the Hindus and the Muslims is the apostrophe ‘s’. The Hindu says, “everything is GOD”. The Muslim says, “everything is God’s”, GOD with an Apostrophe ‘s’. If we can solve the difference of the Apostrophe ‘s’, the Hindus and the Muslims will be united.” Well Zakir Naik got it all wrong. The difference between Hinduism and Islam is that the Hindu believes that everything is ‘God as well as everything is God’s’ and Islam believes that everything is just God’s. The nearest point of convergence between Hinduism and Islam can be achieved by equating the qualities of Allah to Nirguna / Nirvikalpa Brahman and that is only after sanitizing the Allah concept of all the localized Arabic mumbo jumbo. However Brahman is much more than a transcendent and monotheistic sky god as it is both Nirguna and Saguna. It is without qualities as well as it has qualities. Because a god if he(or she or it) is worth being called a god has to be all encompassing. From the literal interpretation of Quran we can deduce that in Islam, Allah is separate from the world and Allah as a being lives probably somewhere up in the sky or another dimension. It is a sky god religion. If the God is separate from the world then Allah has to have a separate location and hence it becomes physical and materialistic with space-time coordinates . It is important to understand that the Islamic god is not Omnipresent and this god or Allah exists at some specific location which is distinct from the world created by Allah. In the vedic paradigm this is considered as nonsense as the universe has no beggining and end and God if he or she or it is worth being called a god has to be omnipresent and not localized at some corner of the universe from where this god directs all the actions of the world.
The idolatory in Hinduism is a symbolic representation of the divinity of the whole universe itself and in its essential form this brings about a reverence to the whole of this wonderful acausal creation. The Vedanta as also the Jain and Buddhist scriptures clearly mention that the world is acausal and it has always existed. To point to the origin of the universe at a specific time in history either through a God creating the universe or through some big bang is a logical fallacy as we would end up with the question as to what existed prior to this creation. How can something come out of nothing. Most of the eastern religions have deduced that the world has always existed in some form or the other. This appeals to logical and scientific sense than the stories of Genesis or the Islamic creation myth. Hence we find that the eastern religions hold a great attraction to the scientific and metaphysical philosophers of the west.
Now coming to the fact of Rajneesh calling himself Baghwan or God. Osho Rajneesh has clarified many times that he is not the God who created this world. ‘No not me’ he mentioned jokingly once. “I didn’t create this world with all the strife and suffering. I would have created a better place had I been God”. Surely Rajneesh never equated himself to the Allah, the medieval monarch like god. It would be good if Zakir Naik and his cohorts read some of the works of Osho (I have provided a link to a well know Osho site in the end for all the readers) and then try to counter him in arguments. Also he might do well to study Upanishadic texts in proper context rather than just using polemics and picking up verses which suit the rigid monotheistic belief system.
One key thing that most Islamists forget when criticising Hinduism and eastern traditions is that in the eastern tradition the spiritual path is individualistic and not based on a single holy book or frozen canon or teachings of a prophet. Hindu traditions are unlike the ‘collective salvation deal’ espoused by the Abrahamic religions. This individualistic approach although a great step in religious and cultural evolution of humanity has politically weakened Hinduism and it has become an easy target to the devious designs of islamists and christian evangelist missionaries, who are hell bent on bringing down a greater tradition to their crude level of understanding of religion.
Many of the evangelists and mullahs are in the habit of ridiculing some cultural symbols and personalities of the Hindu religion. Unlike the Monotheistic religions which are history centric i.e history is all important for man’s access to god, the eastern traditions have many incarnations, perennial access to truth and it is independent of history. That is the reason why Hindus call their religion ‘Sanatana Dharma’, eternal religion. To confine the advent of religion to a single prophet or set of prophets receiving revealation at a specific point of history is to limit the omnipotence of the divine. The intent of the Upanishadic religion or dharma is not just following a book but living as per the natural laws of life. A book however sacred or profound cannot capture truth because truth is a unitary moment which has to be discovered and rediscovered from moment to moment. So it is very silly from the perspective of Vedanta that God chooses some messenger like Muhamad or Jesus or Abraham or Noah and reveals to him some revelation and some dose of good social conduct and disappears into oblivion for eternity. Why is Allah so limited that he needs to communicate to only one person and the rest of humanity just need to follow all these codified injunctions. The message of the Upanishads is that God or Brahman cannot be captured in words much less in books. The semetic religious cannon can be aptly described as a set of few rules, universalized and canonized forever. However the dharma in the eastern traditions allows for an individualistic context based interpretation.
The Dharmic value system is evolutionary and changes with the changing times exept for certain universal absolutes which are eternal. Hence in the Hindu tradition you have two classes of scriptures, the Shruthi and the Smrithi. Shruthi is the inspired part and are universal in their appeal and application. Smrithi, means that which comes from memory and it comprises of the social rules of conduct and other mundane aspects of human existence. Shruthi is changeless and smrithi is something which needs to be revisted and adapted to changing times and circumstances. Shruthi is somewhat akin to the categorical imperative of Immanuel Kant and Smrithi is similar to the hypothetical imperative. The essential problem with Islam is the mixture of Shruthi and Smrithi in Quran. Hence you find many recommended practices in Quran which were relevant during the time and context of 7th century arabia and which does not make any sense in a multicultural, cosmopolitan, secular and humanistic world. Zakir Naik’s claim that Quran is the greatest book on Art of Living is a ridiculous claim to majority of the people living by humanistic and democratic values. Sri Sri Ravishankar’s ‘Art of Living’ is similar to many modern day Hindu movements and it is an adaptation of yogic principles of health, vedantic theology, value system of modern humanistic psychology and the practices of the human potential movement. Osho Rajneesh contributed a great deal in the evolution of the Human Potential Movement. Islam with its frozen in time approach comes nowhere close to any of these systems in terms of content and quality.
Unlike the essential belief of one supreme being of the monotheistic semetic religions like Islam, the eastern religious traditions have a different paradigm of looking at this rigid structure of belief. There are some eastern traditional lineages which demand a priori belief in a supreme being and this supreme being can be either a male or female or both or neither. There are traditions which believe in the impersonal nature of ultimate reality and it allows multiple representations and multiple access to the one supreme lord. ‘As many people so many paths’ remarked the famous sage of Dakshineshwar, Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. This flexibility has been considered and ridiculed as a weakness by many of the monotheistic preachers, however this is the inherent strength of the Hindu tradition. This showcases the inherent liberal and catholic(in the sense of all encompassing) views of the eastern religious paradigm. Monotheism has been rightly stated as My-Theism by several secular critiques of religion like Professor Richard Dawkins.
Some thoughts by Osho on brahman and god - “Brahman has nothing to do with the Christian or muslim idea of God. Brahman means godliness, the divineness that pervades the whole existence… the whole, the holiness of the whole.”. In his own words Osho claimed that he is God based on the following “Samadhi begins with subjective awareness and culminates in realization of our divine self, the all permeating godliness – within and without. This is the state in which the ‘Rishis’ in the east declared ‘Aham Brahmasmi’, the state in which sufi mystic Mansur declared ‘Ana’l Haq’, the state in which Jesus says, ‘I and my Father are one’. This state is called ‘Sambodhi’, enlightenment, divine realization”. When the tombstone of Osho has the message “Osho Never Born and Never Died”, it is a mention to the immortal and unconditioned Consciousness – the Self of all or ‘Brahman’. It is not the physical body of Osho as the physical body is perishable and what is not perishable is consciousness the substratum of all that exists. This Consciousness has no origin and no end, it has no ‘adi’ and ‘antya’. When Osho or eastern mystics affirm that they are God, they mean that everything else is as well God and the individual bodies are like waves in the ocean and the self, which is unconditioned awareness is the ocean itself.
Our ‘scholar of comparative religion’ Zakir Naik accuses Rajneesh of proclaiming himself the God in the Semetic / abrahamic / Islamic religious sense. If these scholars of comparative religions can make up a good study of Rajneesh then hopefully they can come up with some wise arguments than just picking him up on some silly semantics. This is the problem with Muslim scholars, they are just too caught in words, symbols, obedience and adherence to arcane medieval texts that make their minds so closeted. But still they have the nerve or rather the foolhardiness to proclaim that Islam is a scientific religion.
If you are a scholar of comparative religion or philosophy the first pre-requisite is to understand the paradigms, models and cultural symbols of that particular religion or school of thought. Without this understanding the interpretation of a particular religion will remain parochial and not true to the spirit. Finally I would like to request all the readers to consider and reflect on two of the greatest sentences from Rig Veda, the oldest known religious scripture in the world – “Truth is one but wise men describe it in many ways” and “Let noble thoughts come to us from all sides”. Let’s not limit the noble thoughts to come from a book or a few more books.
You can read Osho’s books online from the following sites:
http://www.oshoworld.com
http://www.osho.com
Some intresting links to hindu and vedanta sites:
http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/ad_faq.html
http://www.vedanta.org
http://www.ramana-maharshi.org
http://www.geocities.com/advaitavedant/- This link was created by my friend and has lots of texts on advaitha vedanata.
Entry Filed under: Comparitive Religion, Concept of God, Hindu, Hindutva, Islam, Osho, Osho Zakir Naik, Sri Sri Ravishankar, Zakir Naik. Tags: Comparitive Religion, Concept of God, Hindu, Hinduism, Islam, Osho, Ramana Maharishi, Sri Sri Ravishankar, Vedanta, Zakir Naik.
1. Arul Das | October 26, 2007 at 11:56 am
Nice article. these people do not have the capacity to understand osho.
Osho was a New man.Osho’s message cut across all the barriers of religion, race, religion and sex. The message of osho is very difficult to understand by people who are fanatics. Osho’s aim is meditation which is not religion. not islam not hindu not buddhist . but just meditation on reality. he was the greatest master after buddha to come to this earth. Enlightenement was his message. People with conditioning cannot accept his message. Thats why everyone were afraid. thats why people killed jesus, socrates and mansur. Because they were all threats to soceity but after that they worship them as prophets. if you want to understand osho meditate and go within you will discover everything u need by urself. you dont need anyone to tell you do this and dont do this. eat pig or dont eat pig. cicumcise or dont circumcise. you have all the answers inside urself because u are divine.
2. Yusuf Sheik | October 26, 2007 at 12:06 pm
This is a confusing article. The author does not Quran. Read the Quran and you will know truth. Quran is word of Allah and it is full of truth. All other scriptures are nothing in front of Allah’s words. Allah is the only god and Muhhamud(PBUH) is his prophet.All these osho is pervert and false prophet. He is only talks of sex. Listen to Dr Zakir Naik’s lecture. You will have no doubt and come out of false religion to truth. Islam is truth and peace. Peace is only therough islam. Hinduism is lies.
3. Rabia Fatima | October 26, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Assallam Maleikum. You have no clue what zakir Naik is. You should put your questions to Zakir Naik and he will clear all your doubts. You have not even read Quran properly and talk nonsense. THis man osho was a pervert imagine you sister and mother following him. He has no values. What values you are talking about. Zakir Naik is teaching peace and brotherhood between all religions. It is you who is spreading falsehood and lies about him. Islam is the true path to God and first read abpout Islam before talking nonsense.
4. Bhavani Shankar | October 26, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Rabia Says “You should put your questions to Zakir Naik and he will clear all your doubts. You have not even read Quran properly and talk nonsense.”
Quran is nonsense and fullof violence and sex. It is full of stupid rules. How to clean your hands, have bath after sex, take a brick while you urinate. It treats woman like shit. Talaq talaq and talaq and you are divorced. Husband can beat wife in quran. You are an idiot and a suicide bomber. All suicide bbombers are inspired by allah. They want 72 virgins in heaven and they crash planes to building.
Muhamad was a peadophile pervert he raped a 9 year old girl ayesha and he was 50 year old. Shameless religion. All muslim conquerors used to rape woman and make them slaves. Most of muslim converts were slaves. this zakir naik is a fanatic and he said osama bin laden is not a terrorist and he also says every muslim should be terrorist. He is part of ISI and taliban. and he should be kicked out of India doing anti national activities.
5. sulochanosho | October 28, 2007 at 10:47 am
That ‘guy’ is great, this ‘god’ is great and wasting one’s life energy in a false attemt to prove that ‘this is great or ‘that is great’is what happens when we dont ’see’ the flow of this existence and our life in a here and now focus. There is neither ‘that’, nor ‘this’. Even you are not there. Only kids enjoy fighting, playing with toys and trivial peripheral things. Stop borrowing, start burrowing. A bird out there doesn’t need a holy sermon or religion to sing! YOU ARE ENOUGH UNTO YOURSELF.
6. rancho | October 30, 2007 at 5:07 am
Nice article. I was searching for some material for my essay on the difference between the Occidental and Oriental religions. I found lots of good points from this essay. Thanks.
7. guruprsiddi | October 30, 2007 at 5:09 am
This article has been referenced in Jody’s site
Note To Sri Sri: Peace Ain’t For Pussies –
http://guruphiliac.blogspot.com/
8. jogi | October 31, 2007 at 7:05 am
I dont know why all the muslim fella telling that Quran is ONLY truth, Allah chose Muhammad the only true prophet or last messenger??? Its human to doubt, its natural to inquire but i think many muslims either dont want think or just wanted to be blindfolded. Islamic teachings forbidden the apple of inquiry, doubts forever. What is the Authenticity that Muhammad is the last messenger? Why when world is going to develop in science and all world can have better living style in future (mean more than 1000yrs after Muhammad)that Allah bestowed only on Muhammad and declared his prophetship. Dont you feel that no other eligible person than Muhammad have born after him?
The person who is preaching PEACE have to carry Sword in his hand ?? Allah seems to be in the DIRECTORS SEAT, playing around with human beings.. first create idolator and then direct Muhammad to destroy the poor worshippers labelling them ignorants? dont you feel any conspiracy in this episode ? What is the difference between holy & unholy ? what makes you feel that only QURAN is Holier ? Why Allah doesnot want to enjoy the similar rights to two different human beings men & women. Its ironic that all religions played the same role to supress the woman ?
About Zakir Naik.. he is not establishing any universal brotherhood.instead he is showing how holier the Quran is.. and showing that ISLAM is the only way of Life by his skilful but illogical preachings of Islam.
About OSHO.. he is the rebellion not a revolutionery. His emphasis is on deep understanding of Consciousness.. breaking all the concepts of religions & their teachings. He is life affirmative and his teachings are mainly Meditation, laughter and Love.
Once he said “If God has thrown out Adam and Eve, do tit for tat: throw him out…
We will make the garden of Eden here – let God beg to come in! “.
Do you & your Religion has that guts ?? to utter such rebellious words ??
He is the very salt of earth.. uncomparable.. utterly unique..
9. T.N.RAGHAVENDRA | November 2, 2007 at 1:18 am
Mr D.R.V.Acharyas article is very appropriate and informative . Truly divine are the Vedas and Upanishads which proclaim and promote joy , freedom and knowledge . There are strong points in quran also otherwise it would not have survived so long . Discipline, faith , following only one God and none other , and devotion to God are the common points enunciated both by Vedas and quran . One cannot enter into meaningful discussion with People who donot understand the hindu scriptures but try to make up by rhetorics . Vedas and upanishads are not sectarian but encompasses and embraces whole existance .
Osho is a phenomena and one of the greatest proponents of the Upanishads . We do not have to convince anybody to convince ourselves .
10. Hrishi | November 2, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Well articulated, and a lot more sane than Zakir Naik’s fulminations. Islam it appears has no space for the mystical (which is truly spiritual). Whatever may have grown under Islamist rule was excised violently by the clerics and their political partners e.g. Sufi mysticism. ‘Hindu-ism’ is in essence only the mystical – to that every religious activity aspires and progresses. I dont expect Zakir Naik to respond to this but anyway – here’s a try – where’s the Mystical in teh Quran? or in practised Islam?
Religion (as that which brings a people together under one banner) is fine up to a point – Democracy in fact needs to take over or else people have to be kept together with Cultism and Dicatorship – doesnt it remind you of Islamic states?
But for those who make a living out religion e.g. Zakir Naik – intelligent debate is not wise
11. jeev kolhatkar | November 13, 2007 at 6:14 am
Excellent article. it takes the wind out of silly islamic arguments. Even to call them arguments is silly. Zakir naik is funded by petro dollars to propogate this Islam in the world. He has ammased lot of wealth in Mumbai and runs schools for indoctination into wahabbhi islam. He is also close to taliban and ISI and his interviews in UAE he mentioned that in an Islamic society there is no room for other religions. There will be no freedom of religion if Islam is in a majority as islam is the only truth. In a minority community however they dont mind talking to other religions. His teacher was the foul mouthed Ahmed Deedat, who spent his whole life abusing other religions. He finally got a paralytic stroke and was bed ridden like a vegetable for 10 years before his death.
12. naresh | November 15, 2007 at 7:00 am
I would like to put a single point, This is India where a person from minority community can talk so boldly against Hindu community and there beliefs. You cannot expect a hindu talking about great hindu religion in any of islamic country, people will kill him. Peoples like zakir are able to convince even hindus against there own Religion only because our so called religious leaders are not aggressive.They are happy only in building maths and ashrams, do pravachan on TV channels and thats it. They should understand that they ( likes of ravishankar, asaram bapu, kripalu das ji etc.) will be none listning to them if these islamists continue to register back to back victories.
I urge all hindus and gurus please do something to counter the attack of islamic fundamentalists. I suggest that with enough wealth you are having you should buy some media space to spread awareness about Hindu religion. Because we expect anything from our greedy (for muslin votes) political leaders. it’s time to start protesting.
13. gurupr siddisi | November 18, 2007 at 4:28 am
http://guruphiliac.blogspot.com/2007/10/note-to-sri-sri-peace-aint-for-pussies.html
14. Anand M.S. | November 20, 2007 at 10:50 am
I have gone through the so called debate on “Concept of God”. Ravi Shankar didn’t want to debate. My view is that his message was very simple and could be followed by even a illiterate human being. He just let it flow and grow like his hair and beard. I could see the difference on the stage. I thank Ravi for He didn’t use much Sanskrit verses from Bhagavad Gita, unlike I heard many from the other side. I wouldnot be interested if God had written his message in Sanskrit, or Arabic. I had studied enough languages in my school Kannada, Hindi, Tamil, English and now my wokr demands me to study C, C++, Perl, Phyton … etc. I would rather die in hell than studying another language (Arabic or Hebrew) to understand God. If possible please make things simple for a common man and let us free in choosing our way to understand God.
I appreciate work of Ravi Shankar to bring all of us togeather. And the speeches that OSHO has given, though I don’t agree with everything he says.
Dr. Zakir Naik I will take you as my lawyer in case I am convicted. You are very good in argument. I have a question: Quran says “Allah the most merciful” and we will be punished on the judgement days if we don’t follow Quran or Allah. These statement contradicts.
15. Anique Akhtar | November 23, 2007 at 10:48 am
salam
a strange Article Indeed…I read it completely..It is clear that the author wrote it in aggression trying to somehow prove Dr Zakir Naik wrong..
This whole topic just contains simple statements against Dr Zakir naik & Islam with absolutely no proof…I would suggest the author to read this Topic again except telling us that Dr Zakir is wrong and Osho is great and Muslims cant understand Osho..there is nothing else in this Article…no evidence proving that Dr Zakir Naik is wrong or that Islam is wrong.. or that Osho is great…Just saying things doesn’t mean they are true…You have to give proof for that…
and one more thing…There are so many statements in this article stating that Muslims cant understand Osho…My question is Why ??
don’t we have brains ??
Or does your god only give it to Hindus and not Muslims ??
16. neocon | November 23, 2007 at 12:39 pm
One of the best ways to understand Zakir Naik and Islam is this nice story. Read this parable and apply it to your beliefs and you will understand Islam, Allah, Quran and Muhammad better:
http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php
17. Joel Pastakia | December 4, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Zakir Naik thinks that by quoting verses from Quran and other books, he’s providing people with objective proofs. How silly for him to think that juvenile book verses consstitute proof. Zakir Naik is certainly linked to Islamic terror groups. He should be probed.
Monotheism that preaches the extra-cosmic god who though causally unlinked with the cosmos yet manages to manufacture it (cosmos) out of nothing is pure fiction.
Monism or non-dualism that postulates that a supra cosmic, self-existent, self-contained Absolute Source (Brahman/Godhead) manifests the universes in a graduated manner and serves as both the material as well as efficient Cause. This makes fine sense. Science has arrived at a physical monism with its concepts and experiemental methods. With Quantum Physics is now slowly realising that consciousness is the basis of matter. Physics has approximated to the Vedantic/Mystical view that considers consciousness as the basis of the creation.
Explanations should come from within a system to make sense, whereas those faiths that preach the uncausal extra-cosmic god who creates out of nothing are pure fiction. No serious intellectual looks to Semitic sources based on extra-cosmic monothiesm for inspiration. Monism is the exclusive model of the cosmos that has logic, experience and experimental proofs in support. The Vedas begin with monotheistic dualism but end in monism.
Zakir Naik’s every argument can be blown to bits by any averagely intelligent person, Anyway, he has no proof to support the historicty of any of his revered prophets or of the invisible angel Jibril who is believed to have conveyed mundane information to prophets.
Zakir Naik’s heaven is some extra-cosmic place located god-knows-where. Funnily, though such imbeciles consider heaven a non-physical place yet their heaven is supposed to be overflowing with gross physical elements like milk, honey, water, trees, alcohol, etc. How can a non-physical place like heaven ever contain physical elements like milk, honey, trees, etc? Besides, what exactly is meant by “non-physical” in terms of their material or force composition? How does this non-physical heaven causally connect with the physical universe? Is it possible for another physical element like fire to exist in a non-physical place like hell?
Have rabid Muslims the answer? NO.
Incidentally, Allah is a Vedic Sanskrit word that is a synonym for the personal god (Ishwar), Kaaba is a Sanskrit word meaning house of worship and Kaabali is another name for Shiva. Is this the reason why the Kaaba houses a Shiva linga like stone? Till today, ancient Shiva temples in South India are called Kaabali.
Monism is the truth of existence, monotheism that preaches extra-cosmicism is fiction.
Joel Pastakia
18. Jawan | December 6, 2007 at 1:28 am
Osho is the most misunderstood person in this world today as it should be the case with a man of truth. He told truth as it is. This is for the first time that religion has reached from East to the West. This is for the first time that truth has been expressed in English as purely as 24 Karat Gold. Upto now all religions in the west were just work of translations and 2nd hand. Words of truth can never be translated because the spirit of truth is left behind in the original language and only words are carried forward. Words without the spirit are just dead. When Jesus’s words were translated from Aramaic to Hebrew much spirit was lost. When from Hebrew it went to Greek, more loss. And when ultimately it went to English, it became far difficult to taste the original spirit of Jesus. Same happened with all other translations. It is very difficult to express truth in English as it is originally a language of science and mind. Osho developed ‘Osho English’ which is very close to English. Osho shook whole of the world. He was one man versus whole of the world governments. When he was in India, whole of the Indian government was against him . He exposed MurarJi Desai of his cunningness. He was banned from purchasing any land in India so that he can not set up any commune there and invite more people around him. Persons around him were tasting of something which was beyond any expression. His energy field was so strong that just sitting in his presence was more than enough to experience divine. He talked on almost all the awakened persons on the earth ever happened. His words are so authentic and full of juice of truth . Osho was the most silent person in all over the world sitting 24 hours with closed eyes in his room. He used to come out only for morning or evening discourse for about an hour. But still his presence disturbed whole of the world. All religious philosophies created by Pundits ,scholars,educationists lost any base in front of him. Exploitation of the humanity by Priests and Politicians were exposed like a day light. So naturally Politicians and Priests of all over the world were scared of his presence in their territory. People were singing,dancing and living a joyous life in his presence without any reason. This haunted the ego of all the political leaders. No Politial leader or Priest want anybody living a joyous life without their own blessing. These people want humanity to be miserable. It is only misery which drive people to the priests otherwise nobody will care about them. Osho reminded every person on earth that each person has his Kingdom beneath his own feet and very easy to seek it. He gave the persons around him the taste of this Kingdom. The person who loved Osho saw Budha,Krishna,Nanak,Jesus looking at them from his eyes. Osho traveled to almost all over India . He spent most of his life in train traveling to every remote place of India. His body was almost exhausted and was caught by Asthma during this travel of 30 years continuously. Polluted environment of India was not going to help him to remain in body for much long and the seekers of America and Other western countries started urging him to move to America for a short time in a suitable climate. A 64000 acre of desert Muddy Ranch in Oregon which was on sale for years and nobody was ready to purchase was considered a suitable place by the people who invited him. But this was a desert with no greenery, no birds, no lakes ,no road and nearby place was 21 miles away of a very small population. But within 2 years this land was converted to an oasis by celebrating,singing,dancing and meditating people. It was converted to an unique city named ‘Rajneeshpuram’ with its own buses and its own airport and a self dependent city from every respect. This was the only city in west which was totally vegetarian. There was a common kitchen for each 5000 people. Vegetarian dishes from all over the world were part of the kitchen and new vegetarian recipes were being developed continuously for a taste transition of non-vegetarian to vegetarian. There were meditation menus prepared for every day and season. New meditations techniques were discovered according to the new people’s mind lever. Soon this became a capital of spiritual world and people from all over the world started coming. All educated cream of the world gathered there. His own physician was member of Royal society of Physics and all the best musicians, singers, dancers, pets, artists, painters, craftmen, scientists from all over the world were attracted towards this place. Average education level of that city became double of any other place of the world. During all the period Osho was in silence as he stopped speaking some years before traveling to America. His message was silence and up to that time people gathered around him became capable enough to listen to him in silence and be nourished by his mere presence. He completely destroyed the Prophet or belief system in religion. He clearly described that each human being is fully responsible for himself and no Guru or Prophet can do anything for anybody if the person is merely following a religious belief system or rituals. The person should have real thirst and should start exploring religion as an inner science. He exposed fundamental strategies of the Govt Administration at that time. Books of Darwin were being burnt from the libraries as it was against Bible. Schools were going to be targeted by fundamentalists in the administration under the name of Religious Funds. Within a short period of 1981-1985 Rajneeshpuram invoked the attention of the whole world and became a second home of World Press. This happy, joyful and celebrating city became the comparison factor for whole of the miserable world. Priests and Politicians started facing a big Question Mark about themselves and became jealous and their sleep got disturbed forever. Then started the strategy to spread negative propaganda about the commune. Rajneespuram was not disturbed by the world but World was disturbed by this one small city. Now it is world famous saying that you see what you want to see. If a botanist, a poet,a shopkeeper and a thief go to a garden then a botanist will see the plants and think about their life system,a poet will see the beauty of the garden and start fantasying his poem, a shopkeeper will start thinking about the fruits and market values and a thief will start thinking about the best thing to steal and best route and time to steal. Same way different people of different psychological background spread different rumors. A materialistic person saw just Rolls Royaces in the Rajneespuram. A sexually repressed person saw only women and attached the rumors of sexual orgies and so on. It is not surprising that Osho is mostly known as Rolls Royace man in America and as a Sex Guru in India. There are about 600 books in 54 languages in Osho’s name. His only one book on sex ‘From Sex to Super Conciousness’ attracted the world attention more than any other book. But he spoke courageously almost on every aspect of life directly without any hesitation. But wherever there are flowers there are thorns. Wherever there are Budhas or awakened ones ,there are always ‘Judases’ created around them. Sheela’s husband was dying with cancer in a short period of months. That is why he turned to a seeker and reached Pune in India. He was a sincere seeker but his wife Sheela was an outwardly person and no interest in seeking. So when his husband was meditating ,she was more oriented towards administrative works. So accordingly she raised herself to a secretary of administrative affairs of the commune in Rajneeshuram. A Budha is never suspicious and never rejects anybody from anywhere. His compassion and love and innocence is always unconditional. Withing 5 years in commune at Rajneespuram as secretary ,about billions of Dollars flew through the Sheela’s hands and she just started behaving like a queen. Greed of money and power made her blind. She started behaving like a dictator. As Osho was in silence and only 3 others persons (His Personal physician,dentist and a caretaker) was having physical access to Osho. Sheels tried to poison all of them so that her activities can never be exposed. She created hostility with neighbors to remain in power. When somehow news reached to Osho ,He broke his silence and started speaking and Sheels alongwith her gang of 20 ran away to other countries with huge money. All these activies of Sheela were exposed by Osho himself to the Presss for the first time which are alrealy documented in his books. But this was a great excuse for Politicians and Priests. Horrible words of ‘bioterrorism’,’murderer’,’sex’ etc were associated with his name and propaganda done all over the world. Sheela’a crimes were made Osho’s crimes. List of 35 crimes was prepared under his names. He was arrested without any warrant and was forced from one prison to another for 12 days. He was made to sign under the false name of ‘David Washington’ and was made to enter the prison from back door. When he wrote his name in Hindi along with his world famous signature, this conspiracy to eliminate him was failed. Osho’s body was exposed to radioactive and slow poison ‘thallium’ was given in his bread in jails in such doses so that no trace of proof can be left in his body. When none of the crimes could be proved, His attorney was blackmailed to accept two easy crimes, which were just immigration issues. Even his attorney was made to complete the statement ‘I am Guilty’ in the court which never happened in the history of court before . Explosive materials were found from the chair where he was made to sit after court proceedings and whole of that floor was vacated in advance. Osho was made to sit on the chair as a conspiracy to eliminate him forever if he got bail on that day. As Osho was deported and quickly came out of the court,this plan was cancelled in a hurry. A fine of 400K was imposed for these minor charges to delay the Osho’s release from Jail so that such amount can not be arranged quickly. All these incidents are documented well in detail in the above mentioned book.
Now actions of Judas are not actions of Jesus. Actions of Devdatta are not actions of Budha. Actions of Mahavir’s son in law are not of Mahavir’s. Actions of Sheela are not actions of Osho. This distinction has to be clearly understood. But Sheela’s acts were projected to condem all the Osho and millions of people who loved him. Ruling Party can use any act for its own motivations. To make it more clear remember when a man with Hindu faith kills an Indian Leader it becomes just a matter of ‘One mad guy Nathu Ram” but when a man of Sikh faith kills an Indian leader ,whole of Sikh community is projected as villain and negative propaganda is done to spread anger against all the people of the community. See the difference. Act is same but it is projected with different motivations. Sheela is responsible for her acts. Osho was not even a resident of Ranjeeshpuram. He was living as a guest in a far away guest house in a silent place. Just concentrating on Sheela’s activities ignoring all the positive sides of Rajneespuram is not a balanced approach. There were far more positive things in Rajneeshpuram than just a Sheela. There are also hostile activities done by people who were living near the commune which should not be ignored.
Moreover a person of truth is already condemned in his time and worshipped later on. That is what is happening in the case of Osho. A charlatan person is always worshipped in his time and condemned later on. That is what is happening to Mohan Dass Gandhi who was projected as Mahatma Gandhi by greedy people as a political deal to remain themselves in office. It is truth which prevails ultimately. Now words of Osho has become best selling all over the world. He books became best selling even in unexpected countries like Iran,Russia and China. The countries who deported him are fighting for copyrights of his books . There are no copyrights in India for Osho’s books. NewYork has all the copyrights of Osho’s works. Today no book store is complete anywhere the world without a separate section just for Osho Books/music/Video/Audio.
Negative propaganda and cunning actions of politicians can never silence a Budha. Actually these help to spread the truth. Truth can never be stopped by any Government but more it is stopped,more sharp it becomes. Ram is standing upon Ravan. If there were no Ravan,nobody would have remembered Ram. Without Ravan,there can be no Ramyan. Truth itself is silent. but actions of idiots make it a news. Destruction of Rajneespuram could not do any harm. It paved the way for Osho’s World Tour. He exposed almost each country and was deported from all over the world. He went to the Greece which was called land of Socrates. He was stoned there as well by bishops. He reminded whole of the world that civilization is still a dream . After Rajneespuram was destroyed,The people who were living at RajneesPuram spread to all over the world and seed of truth went to whole of the earth. Now Osho communes are spreading all over the world. Communes bigger than Rajneespuram are already existing in Brazil and Europe. Osho meditation camps are happening all over the world including in India. New generation is already angry with old generation. What has old generations given?. This ugly world of nations,armies,thousands wars,two world wars and now the preparation of third and final war. We are sitting on nuclear explosives. Now the world has accumulated the nuclear weapons which can destroy this tiny and beautiful earth 700 times. And still the piles of nuclear weapons is increasing. Any stupid politician can trigger this ugly war any time. And politicians are most retarded class of humanity. These politicians are continuously creating hostility with other nations so that humanity can remain divided and their chairs,requirement and work remain alive. Future is golden. A new age,new humanity and a new man is born with Osho. Age of nations,armies,small families is finished . In the Golden future individuals will be living together seeking,meditating,singing,dancing and celebrating in communes. Children will be brought up together. The way child marriage is crime,so child initiation to any belief should be the crime. It is crime to impose a belief system and a religion until the child is matured. It destroys the real urge to seek forever. Readymade answers from Pundits are furnished before the question is even raised. This is ugly. Future will of real religiousness Not bogus religions
19. Aravind | December 7, 2007 at 8:32 pm
Dear acharya,
I think this is one of the most beautiful articles I have read in the recent past apart from the one on aavarana….I watched couple of those videos from Zakir yesterday on youtube and was wondering what on earth is going on….The audience was filled with white ‘toppis’ and they always clapped when zakir told those chapters,versus like a parrot … He even failed staging Q&As and all of them were stupid to say the least.
http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php
Liked this one… not sure if Anique Akhtar saab will ever understand the intent of this…I guess he’s waiting for the millin dollars from Hank or….LOL…..He’s fit to be in Naik’s audience (LOL!)
True…Ravishankar really messed it all up…He is more with his heart than his head…
There is one more sankaracharya (Some fake guy) in a video with this zakir dude…It’s because of these pseudo-secular moron that India is where it is today…..
It was a pleasure reading this article
Aravind
20. Nishant | December 7, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Well said Mr. Acharya. Osho was against all dogmas and sanctified folklore which are the hallmarks of organized religion, whether Christianity, Islam and even Hinduism. He promoted the spirit of inquiry and self-realization rather than blind obedience to scriptures and creeds.
21. Biju | December 10, 2007 at 6:16 am
Mr Acharya.
You make an interesting point about internet being able to remove the closeted mindset of muslims. I have worked in Oman and Iran for 22 years and I know how islamic societies filter information and there is no question of any dialogue or debate in these countries. Oman is the most liberal of the muslim countries with the head of the state is sympathetic to hindus. some people also feel he is a closet hindu but cant make the fact public. In Iran it is a bit different. The shias in Iran resent the arab domination but they are fanatic muslims running the country. After islamic revoution the tolerant and liberal iranin soceity turned into a fundamentalist state. But iranins in general are quite liberal and open to new ideas. Many iraninins are more communist than muslims. There are many who believe in islam only as a social movement and they are atheists. I know from some sources that there are many in the government as well. Although osho books cannot be sold he is quite popular there. In Teheran there is a osho meditation group as well. I have attended some meditation camps conducted in these secret groups. there are high ranking officials in the government who are osho followers. But in public they are islamists and followers of ayatollah kohmeni. As usual they beleive that iranian soceity is still not mature for the thoughts of Osho. It is only confined to the elite who can read and discuss his teachings in small groups. Sri sri ravishankar is also becoming popular in Iran again confined only to elite.
22. siddharth | December 10, 2007 at 11:49 am
Dear Sir,
An excellent article. I just saw the pro gramme on which you have commented last night on Peace TV and was really happy and relieved to read your commentary on it.
It is really sad how Sri Ravi Shankar was not able to put forth a correct picture on Hinduism andd i especially did not like the fact that he choose to distance himself away from Osho who i think was and is BRILLIANT !!!! Still to come across someone who can hold you mesmerized with his talks. It is like flowers coming forth especially when he speaks in Hindi.
Zakir Naik is doing more harm than good by going about his business as he does. He will have to be reborn another 100 times to even coming close to understanding love and spirituality.
My compliments to you
regards
Siddharth
23. sampuna | December 11, 2007 at 1:59 am
Hi all,i believe religion has got no values if it turns a follower into an arrogant person – saying that he has got the ONLY truth.That itself is the downfall of spirituality. The goal of spirituality is , afterall spiritual release. How can there be release if one stubornly proclaims one’s god true while other’s false? One judges based on one’s own religion’s yardstick.All Abrahamic religions do that, so that makes everyone a worshipper of a false god! That is what Zakir Naik is trying say.
I have read his theory about Buddha prophesizing the advent of Muhammad.It was a whole lot of junk.He misquoted the BUddhist texts, then he quoted from secondary source. eg – He said Mettaya Buddha is another name for Muhammad.Fine.The problem is Mettaya is supposed to appear when humans can live up to 84,000 years old.-see my point?
24. Satori | December 12, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Folks. Please hold your horses. I can only see anger and vengeance on all sides. This behaviour totally defies the teachings of your own doctrines. How is a man tobe compassionate then?
Some love Osho, some hate him, some are impressed with Dr Zakir and some disagree. To whom Osho gives serenity and peace, go ahead. To whom Dr Zakir gives credence and peace, go ahead. By aruging no one is will be enlightened? Is this how the prophets achieved?
The prophets have been deeply compassionate and they still are. They must be shaking their heads in total disbelieve of Humans are now. Anyway they will wait and wait for the surrender to happen, for the flower to blossom in the arid hearts of man.
25. Allahs amma Iqbal | December 13, 2007 at 6:24 am
Hi Satori,
Comn man
You say “The prophets have been deeply compassionate and they still are. They must be shaking their heads in total disbelieve of Humans are now.”
Which prophets were compassionate – Muhammad, Moses, Abraham, Krishna, Rama. Read their stories man. There were all involved in wars and fights. Very few religious leaders have been compassionate like Buddha or Jesus. Most of the prophets were happy in building their own sects, organisations and cults. Some saints of the Bhakti movement and sufis were compassionate but the priests, mullahs and politicians were against them. I dont think any of the prophets were enlightened they were all politicians and kings who influenced a lot of people and made them worship them in the name of religion.
26. Shafique Ur Rehman | December 13, 2007 at 6:43 am
Mr. DRV acharya your guru is UG Krishnamurthi with whom you studied for seventeen years. You yourself tell in your blog. Your guru was against osho and used to call him the greatest pimp. why you writing for osho now.
27. Marie M | December 13, 2007 at 10:55 am
The more I read of the Qu’ran, the more I am convinced that Islam is nothing more than a hodge-podge of Judaism and Christianity mixed together by an illiterate bastard. What makes it worse is that the Qu’ran, and other Islamic texts, were written hundreds of years after his death. And that’s why I’m baffled as to why some people convert. Those who were born into Islam may sometimes just be cultural Muslims who don’t give a damn for theology. But the converts have done their share of research yet still choose Islam. I don’t know who in their right mind would convert to Islam.
28. Dr. Mohhamad, Phd | December 13, 2007 at 11:11 am
Actually these kafirs are dumb. They don’t know what they are talking about. They read Koran out of context, & criticize Rasulallah (SWAS). I tell you, hell awaits them. They will drink boiling water, & eat fruits with thorns. They will find no intercessors or helpers. Even though the Koran waited 14 centuries for infidels to discover science, they just dont get it, & are therefore “dismissed”.
As for ourself we have a bright future. Plenty of houris to bang in heaven after death & we will sit on reclining couches on gardens under which rivers flow. We will have “youths of perpetual freshness” serving you the finest tasting wine called Salsabil, which puts the wine that I like to drink called “Fat Bastard” to shame.
Besides embryology, big bang, bang bang, gang bang and what not, I have read somewhere that the Koran has also succeeded in decoding human DNA – Subhanallah!!!
29. Islam Debunked | December 13, 2007 at 11:19 am
Check this site out and see for yourself all the arguments of zakir naik is nonsense. it is bullshit. Islam itself is bullshit
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Rebuttals_to_Zakir_Naik
30. Brahmos | December 13, 2007 at 11:41 am
Dr. Zakir Naik is an MBBS from Mumbai, who has decided to use laughter therapy instead of conventional medicine to cure people.
Unfortunately, Muslims really believe his jokes.
One of his jokes ( an explanation for why Islam forbids eating pork) :
“Pig is a shameless creature that invites other pigs to have sex with its wife. If you eat pig, you become like a pig. Hence Islam forbids eating pork.”
31. sandeep | December 13, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Hinduism is purely practical.One can actually realise that everything is god by being sincere in their practice,be it bhakti,gnana or yoga.People like Zakir naik may be very good in theory of Islam and may be knowing how to defeat people with arguements,but God is beyond intellect.There are no questions the realm of divine.That is why saints keep quiet,as sri sri ravi sankar did.And it is also not correct to judge saints from our plane.Himalayan masters know that sri sri ravi shankar is a rare soul born to bring light to the world.If some fools don’t want to cut barriers across religions,it is their fate.Why useless arguements,first have love for god and realise him ,then they can know that everything is divine.Then one cannot really hate fellowmen,what to say about killing.
32. Gurus: the best businessmen of the era « Eccentric UG! | December 14, 2007 at 10:17 am
[...] visit a related link in Wikipedia Another interesting link there. Sulochanosho’s All Postings [HOME] Wisdom Stored is Wisdom Frozen Religions: Godly [...]
33. Haseena Khatun | December 15, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Islam, Pseudo Dalitism and the Philosophy of Hypocrisy
If we look at the society around us, we find good and bad everywhere. In every stratum, in every caste, in every religion we have good and bad people. A poor should be called a poor, and a rich, a rich. Being poor doesn’t make one a good person, and being rich doesn’t make one a bad person. Goodness and Badness is not dependent one’s level of income. It’s an innate nature of human beings.
However, this innate nature is often influenced by external conditioning – such as family environment, immediate society, education, religion etc. To a Christian or a Hindu, the influence of his religion is not as strong as that on a Muslim (male). This is because a non-Muslim is never “conditioned” to think in one way – as a Muslim man is conditioned to think. A Muslim man cannot think beyond Koran. Dr. Zakir Naik of Islamic Research Foundation rightly says that for Muslims like him Koran is the benchmark for everything. Science is okay in as far as it agrees with Koran. It’s a different matter that Muslim scholars strive to extrapolate, mince and misinterpret Koranic verses to prove that they contend with science. Koran and Science is a new area of research for these Muslim “scientists” (people like Dr. Zakir Naik) to prove that Science agrees with Koran (and, not otherwise). All developments of science – theories, postulates, theorems and axioms are there in Koran, which need to be researched, unveiled and exposed. Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, Quantum theory, Concepts of relativity, Postulates of Darwin… etc. are all there in Koran. Prophet Mohammed was not only a prophet; he was also a scientist-par-excellence. He had his own research laboratory with 11 lab assistants (you guess the names). It’s an irony that the developed world doesn’t recognize his scientific genius. One Koran is enough to replace all books on Math, Physics, Chemistry, Botany, and Anthropology… by just knowing and understanding the Koran, a person can understand all the secrets of nature.
The Rich Dalits and Muslims… Thriving on Hypocrisy and Hatred towards Hinduism
I must not deviate. Though I am a Muslim myself (a true Muslim never deviates), I am in the habit of deviating from the right path (the path of Islam) and search for newer paths. The Koran in Surah 2 (The Heifer) talks about these hypocrites like me. I, on my part, would like to talk about the hypocrites like VT Rajshekar (Editor of magazine “Dalit Voice”), Kancha Ilaiah (of “Why I am Not a Hindu” fame), Zakir Naik (Dr. Koran)… and the likes. These people portray themselves as oppressed and subjugated – as if all the agonies and sorrows on earth have befallen them. So beautifully they craft words to win audience, that the true Dalits – the really true Dalits, who are really oppressed and exploited, lose their voice. Has anyone enquired into the personal lives of these pseudo-dalits? Are they really dalits? To talk about the rights of dalits is welcome – but who is the real dalit? Whose voice is unheard of? These powerful men have themselves become rich talking about dalits and Islam, but we Muslim women continue to remain under misery and desolation. Do Muslim women have any voice? I was luckier that I married a non-Muslim. And today I have the freedom to write about the issues beyond the veil. The dalits of India are not as exploited as these leaders portray them to be. The plight of dalits (other than Muslim women) has more monetary nuances than otherwise. The oppressed are they who are financially weak. The financially strong, from whatever lower caste they may come from, are not oppressed. And this oppression too is sporadic and milder compared to the oppression that Muslim women face. India offers its citizens far more rights than any other country. But Muslim women are really oppressed, irrespective of their financial status. And the reasons are religious, not political or otherwise. Only Islam is responsible for their poor condition.
Majority of the Hindus are liberal, respectful to other faiths and peace-loving
My husband is a Hindu, loves me, and respects Islam more than I myself. I must say, that India offers tremendous freedom to people to speak their mind. Anti-Hindu books have sold like hot cakes – bought predominantly by Hindus only. Hindus have tremendous tenacity to accept criticism. Anti-Islam literature is mostly available online (many Islamic countries do not permit thought-provoking sites such as faithfreedom.org), but you’d find anti-Hindu books in Hindu shops! What does it speak of? If Hinduism is really that bad, if it is really that oppressive, it’d oppress anti-Hindu publications also. But it never did so. Go to any railway book stall beside Gita-Press outlet and you can freely ask for a copy of Kancha Ilaiah’s “Why I am Not a Hindu?” You can also frivolously tell the Hindu bookseller how much praise you have heard about this book from Dr. Zakir Naik (Dr. Koran) or VT Rajshekar. But I can assure you, you’d never get a hard copy of “Why I am Not a Muslim” by Ibn Warraq anywhere in India, neither in Hindu shops, nor in Muslim shops. [Read my post “Mr. Kancha Ilaiah - Why I Am Not a Muslim!’ You can use the search field on top left of this page]. You’d never get published copies of all those articles posted by Brother Ali Sina (and party) on their website http://www.faithfreedom.org. Ask for VT Rajshekar’s “Dalit Voice”, and you can easily get it in your city if you do a little search. VT Rajshekar calls the Brahmins cunning – and it’s an irony that his so called “Brahmin-ruled” India hasn’t banned his books and magazine.
The Role of Media and Non-Muslims in Converting Muslim Women to Other Faiths
It’s high time that media highlights the pathetic condition of Muslim women across the globe. Let not get swayed away by the baseless rants of these hypocrites. Dalitism for them is a money-making affair. The best leaders of dalits were people like Buddha, Guru Nanak, Sufiyan Thuri, Hazrat Khwaja Garib Nawaz, Sant Ravidas, Baba Bulleh Shah, Sri Ramakrishna… who really strove for an egalitarian society… without making their life-goal a money making business. At least, they were not hypocrites.
In the end, I’d reiterate that the real dalits of India are Muslim women. They hardly have any say in anything. True liberation can only come if non-Muslims come forward to help them. Their plight is more religious than economic. They have been victims of the lop-sided and prejudiced teachings of Koran that has pushed them much behind their own men-folk (who are already behind other men of their age) in terms of education and better lifestyle. True revolution can only come if Muslim women marry non-Muslims. Christians can play a more important role. Missionaries can come forward and attract Muslim women to their fold. Secular Christian education can really go a long way in improving the status of Muslim women. Hindus need to be more liberal in converting people to their faith. There is serious lack of missionary zeal among Hindu organizations – most of them are only indolent outfits busy stopping converts to Christianity. I strongly feel that the plight of Muslim women can improve only if both Hindus and Christians come forward to uplift them. The Sikhs and Buddhists can also play important roles. Buddhists have far more missionary zeal compared to Hindus. Moreover, many Buddhists and Christians in India are non-vegetarians. This would facilitate easy conversion of Muslim women to their faiths. Let us come forward to help the really deserving dalits – the Muslim women who have been victims of worst kind of gender bias for centuries.
Mrs. Haseena Khatun, MA
Editor, Khawatein Voice
http://khawatein.blogspot.com/
34. A.Menon | December 16, 2007 at 6:52 am
NIce article
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find anything that agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” -Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha), 563-483 B.C.
35. AmazedIndianGuy | December 16, 2007 at 8:53 pm
Mrs Haseena, you bring in a different angle to the discussion. I just wanted to point out one thing though, you say “One Koran is enough to replace all books on Math, Physics, Chemistry, Botany, and Anthropology… by just knowing and understanding the Koran, a person can understand all the secrets of nature.” – actually this is true. This has been the case with the truth as discussed in any of the worlds great scriptures. Im not saying that the quantum theory is discussed in the Koran, but all observable phenomenon is of reality and all that is unobserved, unmanifest is still “That” what is called god in some releigions. Im sure somewhere in there there should be one or two sentences about the truth that inspired the Sufis in such numbers to get enlightened. Its also interesting to see the poetic Sufis express their understanding of the truth versus the dry, boring, stupid sounding Mr Zakhir Naik who reads lines from the Koran and other scriptures and instantly quotes the page and line numbers. His interpretation of these lines is that of a high school kid. His attempts at humor (like the Pig Example discussed in one of the posts above) is pathetic at best.
I haven’t heard one statement from the Koran taken gently and explored in its infinite beauty with a deep understanding of its meaning, unraveling the poetic beauty. If this Zakhir guy is not capable of such skills, he doesn’t at least have to be a sand paper representation of Islam? And what is funny is the cartoons in the audience who give him standing ovations every time he remembers a page number and line number of the quote he used. The ovations seem to be not because of this scholar guy’s ability to remember page numbers, but because the quote was used to refute or humiliate some other religion. How pathetic can people get? Like someone said in a post above, why did Allah create people of other religions in the first place?
Anyways, the comparison of the expression of the Sufis seemed apt here, because this Zakhir guy is exactly like the anti Sufi. All my love and respect for Islam I learnt from the Sufi’s this guy Zakhir incites nothing but hatred in me. Here are a few examples of Sufi Poetry, beautiful and transcendental like any line from the Upanishad or the Tao Te Ching
Rumi –
In your light I learn how to love.
In your beauty, how to make poems.
You dance inside my chest,
where no one sees you,
but sometimes I do,
and that sight becomes this art.
Farid ud Din Attar –
Strive to discover the mystery before life is taken from you.
If while living you fail to find yourself, to know yourself,
how will you be able to understand
the secret of your existence when you die?
Intoxicated by the Wine of Love.
From each a mystic silence Love demands.
What do all seek so earnestly? ‘Tis Love.
What do they whisper to each other? Love.
Love is the subject of their inmost thoughts.
In Love no longer ‘thou’ and ‘I’ exist,
For Self has passed away in the Beloved.
Now will I draw aside the veil from Love,
And in the temple of mine inmost soul,
Behold the Friend; Incomparable Love.
He who would know the secret of both worlds,
Will find the secret of them both, is Love.
Jami –
Who is man?
The reflection of the Eternal Light.
What is the world?
A wave on the Everlasting Sea.
How could the reflection be cut off from the Light?
How could the wave be separate from the Sea?
Know that this reflection and this wave are that very Light and Sea.
Compare this to
The Tao Te Ching
The Tao-
There is a thing, formless yet complete.
Before heaven and earth it existed.
Without sound, without substance,
it stands alone and unchanging.
It is all-pervading and unfailing.
One may think of it as the mother of all beneath Heaven.
We do not know its name, but we call it Tao.
Deep and still, it seems to have existed forever.
4.
Look, it cannot be seen – it is beyond form.
Listen, it cannot be heard – it is beyond sound.
Grasp, it cannot be held – it is intangible.
These three are indefinable, they are one.
From above it is not bright;
From below it is not dark:
Unbroken thread beyond description.
It returns to nothingness.
Form of the formless,
Image of the imageless,
It is called indefinable and beyond imagination.
Stand before it – there is no beginning.
Follow it and there is no end.
Stay with the Tao, Move with the present.
Knowing the ancient beginning is the essence of Tao.
Rig Veda – verse 1
“There was neither non existence
Nor existence then;
there was neither the realm of space
nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred? Where?”
“He who is beyond all exists as the relative universe.
That part of Him appears as sentient and insentient beings.
From a part of Him was born the body of the universe,
and out of this body were born the Gods, the earth and men.”
Katha Upanishad 2.6.10-11
When all the senses are stilled, when the mind is at rest, when the intellect wavers not–then, say the wise, is reached the highest state.
This calm of the senses and the mind has been defined as yoga. He who attains it is freed from delusion.
Mundaka Upanishad 2.2.6
Within the lotus of the heart he dwells, where the nerves meet like the spokes of a wheel at its hub. Meditate on him as OM. Easily may you cross the sea of darkness.
Chandogya Upanishad 8.3.2
As one not knowing that a golden treasure lies buried beneath his feet may walk over it again and again, yet never find it, so all beings live every moment in the city of Brahman, yet never find him because of the veil of illusion by which he is concealed.
Mundaka Upanishad 2.2.1-2
To many it is not given to hear of the Self. Many, though they hear of
it, do not understand it. Wonderful is he who speaks of it. Intelligent
is he who learns of it. Blessed is he who, taught by a good teacher, is
able to understand it.
The truth of the Self cannot be fully understood when taught by an
ignorant man, for opinions regarding it, not founded in knowledge, vary
one from another. Subtler than the subtlest is this Self, and beyond all
logic. Taught by a teacher who knows the Self and Brahman as one, a man
leaves vain theory behind and attains to truth.
The awakening which you have known does not come through the intellect,
but rather, in fullest measure, from the lips of the wise….
Words cannot reveal him. Mind cannot reach him. Eyes do not see him.
How then can he be comprehended, save when taught by those seers who
indeed have known him?
Bright but hidden, the Self dwells in the heart.
Everything that moves, breathes, opens, and closes
Lives in the Self. He is the source of love
And may be known through love but not through thought.
He is the goal of life. Attain this goal!
The shining Self dwells hidden in the heart.
Everything in the cosmos, great and small,
Lives in the Self. He is the source of life,
Truth beyond the transience of this world.
He is the goal of life. Attain this goal!
Passage from Auguries of Innocence by William Blake
To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.
The Buddhist Heart Sutra
Form is emptiness; emptiness also is form. Emptiness is no other than form; form is no other than emptiness. In the same way, feeling, perception, formation, and consciousness are emptiness. Thus, Shariputra, all dharmas are emptiness. There are no characteristics. There is no birth and no cessation. There is no impurity and no purity. There is no decrease and no increase. Therefore, Shariputra, in emptiness, there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no formation, no consciousness; no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no appearance, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no dharmas, no eye dhatu up to no mind dhatu, no dhatu of dharmas, no mind consciousness dhatu; no ignorance, no end of ignorance up to no old age and death, no end of old age and death; no suffering, no origin of suffering, no cessation of suffering, no path, no wisdom, no attainment, and no non-attainment. Therefore, Shariputra, since the bodhisattvas have no attainment, they abide by means of prajnaparamita.
Finally another one from Diwan Jami
Whether your destiny is glory or disgrace,
Purify yourself of hatred and love of self.
Polish your mirror; and that sublime Beauty
From the regions of mystery
Will flame out in your heart
As it did for the saints and prophets.
Then, with your heart on fire with that Splendor,
The secret of the Beloved will no longer be hidden.
36. Satori | December 17, 2007 at 4:55 am
Dr. Mohhamad, Phd ,
In resonse to your writings. No muslim has spoken about DNA 20 or 30 years ago. Now suddenly you realize it has been decoded on the Quran? Its merely your interpretation then. Like all of Nostradamus’ prophecies, until the event happens then someone shouts…”You see, I told you!”
DNA was discovered by Watson and Crick. And they were inspired by a book entitled “What is Life?” written by the co-founder of Quantum physicist Erwin Shroedinger. Erwin was a brilliant physicist yet very mystical about him and his ideas. Being a German, he cherished the Vedic texts. He also came out with the famous “Thought Experiment” from which the ideas of the latest superseller “The Secrets” were derived from. Its no secret after all. That is simply the logical conclusion of the Quantum physics minded person.And the Hindu texts have had spoken this since time immemorial. If one looks at the depiction of Hindus “Surya Bhagwan ” who holds grip of seven horses ,each representing a colour as what the prism projects. Now how had the Hindus known his more than 5,000 years ago what Young Newton said to have discovered it about 400 years ago? Can the Hindus than claim that they have the Original God and this Original God manufactured other Gods?
Dr Zakir has mentioned that the Islamic God is the “manufacturer” since he had revealed the ideas of the working of the Universe 1,400 years ago. And he also questioned how would it be possible unless such knowledge has come from God the manufacturer.
But he missed the point, he totally missed that there existed a great Library in Egypt called the library of Alexandria which is said to have accumulated all the literary and scientific treasures of the world, be it from the Bablylonians, Mesopotamians, Indians, Chinese , Arabs , Greek and so on. It is said to had held the secrts of the Pyramids, Atlantis and Lemuria. During the height of Islam, under the orders of Saladin, one of his deputies called Abdullah arrived to the library, mounted on his horse. In on hand he held the Quran and in the other hand a flaming torch. And from there he asked “…if what is written in them agrees with the Koran, they are not required; if it disagrees, they are not desired. Destroy them therefore.”, …it was simply a dead end, either way the library was to be destryoed for the Muslim leaders knew that knowledge from the library was then incorporated into their Holy Book and no knowledge higher than their Holy Book should exist! The library of Alexandria burnt and burnt for 6 months, that much scriptures it had held, hundreds of years perhaps a thousand years’ knowledge gone in one stroke. Now man has to rediscover everything all over again. But of course it would not have contained the knowledge of very modern science though some may interprete them to one’s own understanding.
So what if scriptures contain elements of science?It simply does not prove anything and may not be useful even as a high school science subject also. Move On!
On the concept of Heaven and Hell. As per your description I would rather enjoy Hell then Heaven since it sounds such a boring place. I am already in Heaven!!! I will despise Heaven since Im absolutely a non-alcoholic and I wish to be so even after my death. I can’t believe how you could settle for such low moral grounds and so greedy of your your after life. Is this why one lives and does all his best just to get admission into Heaven? It sounds as though we live with a membership card that accumulates points which can be redeemed later. There is no Heaven nor Hell. The mind i capable of infinite hallucinations and therefore it is just a deep consolation, drug like…nay I guess I’m much more freer than that. If by your words, Hell awaits me, so be it, God Bless You! and yes sir, Im a Kafir, and I am very proud of it bcause as a Kafir I am more compasionate and have unconditional love for Humanity and of all I dont have any membership with Dept of Heaven or Hell. I am simply a man who loves God for the hope of no reward……..
37. Satori | December 17, 2007 at 5:43 am
Mrs. Haseena Khatun, MA,
Madam, my deepest respect for you. You are a very kind person. Well said, well balanced!
Madam, if Koran contains all that has to be known in science then how come most of the Nobel laureates are Jewish and Kafirs?
Dr Zaki -
I am sure you can be the living proof. Since you are convinced so much that Koran is the Ultimate Holy Science, Modern day science has trouble in understanding the nature of “Bucky Ball” or C-60. If you can help to stabilize it in room temparature you would have done a great contribution to Humanity. Please help.Look for the clue in your Holy Book, it must be in there. But just do not shout its there after a Jew or a Kafir has done the job.
By such sayings you have reduced your own Holy Book into a mere worldly text. Please speak on the deepest Spiritual aspect of Koran. I am very eager to know what Koran speaks on the enlightenment of a soul and the techniques associated to it.
The sufis derived their techiques from the “Vigyana Bhairava tantra”. The moment you say meditation, it is Indian, the link is forgotten but it is Indian. Like Farid’s the Seven Valleys of Love…from which AR Rahman brilliantly composed the song for “Dil Se”, the Seven Stages of Love. Now he is a true Sufi with such love and serenity. What is this “Seven stages of Love” about? this is what the Indians call as the experience of “Kundalini”. I recommend Osho”s “The Mystic Experience” for your reading since in this book he has dealt with the deepest realm of human soul from stages 1 to 7. You may get enlightened too or at least a “Satori” – a minute glimsp!
38. vikrant | December 20, 2007 at 6:32 am
The problem with muslims is that they are too irrational and fanatic about their faith. That should not be a problem as each faith and religion is expected to teach whatever it wants. Even among Islamic followers sufis and bohras are considered heretics. So I think it is a waste of time and energy by all you learned people to try and bring them to a debate.
I guess the matter would have ended there… but the problem is that islam is a facilitator for terrorism and that is a big problem. the HRD index shows that they are in bottom of every progressive index and their maulvis and preachers and intellectuals are busy defending this medival faith which has led to nothing but wars, killings…. Even the progressive people in their community are in hiding as this faith has been hijacked by fundamentalists.
Hindu fundamentalism ( which thankfully is in absolute minority) is certainly not an answer to this…..
Unless muslims educate themselves and become progressive ( keep the faith at home and not carry it around with them everywhere!)….. there is nothing that civic society can do!
Attacking a great scholar like osho….who spoke nothing but the inconvenient and politically incorrect TRUTH,,,! is no surprise….
39. neo | December 22, 2007 at 9:07 pm
Man,
Let me not say anything about god or truth or religion,
But i can say about three persons as i have gone through all of them-
OSHO – he knew and closest to explain,his brainstorming leads to ,extraordinary,if one is follower,its one’s problem otherwise his words can be good awakener,a man of coming centuries
Ravishankar-doesnt knew,trying to do good work,depends on PR skill,secular,not for truthseeker,good for mediocres trying to spend life better,not a great knowledgele too
Zakir Naik- great memorizng,good debater,proof sriptures be hapy,though good islamic reformer and belif establisher but of no worth of truth seeker,he is sort of good scholar
my 2 cents: agreed almost with writer,god one
40. Basith | January 3, 2008 at 10:12 am
Dear Mr.D.R.V.Acharyas and Brothers and sisters!
The entire thread about the concept of God and Religion went well in this forum.
Everyone in this globe must be given a chance to know the truth about the existence of the god and the religion, To make this happen I want D.R.V.Acharyas to have a open debate with Mr.Zakir naik, so that Muslims like me have a chance to know the other part of the hindu god and it’s scriptures.
41. DR.YOGENDER PATWARI. | January 3, 2008 at 5:54 pm
HI READERS,
PLEASE DONT QUAREL AMONG YOURSELVES.PLEASE.I WAS A BRAHMIN AND NOW CONVERTED TO ISLAM.I WAS ALSO A MAD PERSON WHO WAS DYING TO PRAY AND BOW BEFORE IDOLS(STONES).BUT I WANT TO TELL ALL MY HINDU FRIENDS ALLAH IS NOTHING BUT PARAMATHMA.I THINK YOU KNOW THE MEANING OF THAT.THE ONE WHO HAS NO FORM.THE STONES TO WHICH YOU ARE PRAYING ARE CREATED BY YOU AND HAS NO POWER.BUT OK FIGHT AND ONE DAY YOU AND I AND WHOLE WORLD WILL TASTE DEATH.DO YOU KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU AFTER DEATH.YOU DONT KNOW. BUT SURELY YOU WILL MEET ALLAH TAA’LA.THEN YOU WILL DEFINITELY REPENT.THATS ALL I WANTED TO SAY.
42. Layman | January 3, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Osho’s words on Muhammad
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have told you about this man Salman Rushdie. The way Ayatollah Khomeini and the other religious leaders of Iran have behaved…ordinarily people think that this is very strange from a religious man. I want to tell you this is not — this is what religions have been doing for centuries.
Mohammed himself carried a sword his whole life, killing people, and he has given the name Islam, to his religion, which means peace! And on his sword was written in letters of gold, “Peace is my message” — on the sword!
Ayatollah Khomeini is exactly behaving like all the religious leaders. It is absolutely irreligious behavior but Ayatollah Khomeini is not the only one responsible for it, he is simply a representative of the whole past history of religions: killing, murder, crusades…fights over strange things.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Again Zakir Naik proves that hes an advocate for the fools by saying foolish things with a Quote from unholy Quaran. Any fool can biheart that book in two days. No Muslims ever tried it and thats the reson they are clapping for it
43. Layman | January 3, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Zakir Naik is doing some Gimmikks and if you take his audience out from his conversation he will run for a hole.
Always he speaks with Muslim audience and they are ready to clap for him when he start Quoting some verses from Quran.
Ali Sina challenged him for a written debate. But he didn’t respond. Because written debate he will not play Gimmikks and there is not audience to clap him.
Muslims need to be a bit more educated to involve in rational debate. they themselves never tried understand Quran. So when Zakir says something, they are clapping..If Zakir says Special Theory of relativity is described in Quran also they wil clap. Because they don’t know whats special theory of relativity and they don’ tknow whats the meaning of that Quranic Verse
go here http://www.faithfreedom.org and see how Ali Sina dismantles Zakir Naik
44. Layman | January 3, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Thanks Brahmos for the Joke above..
You are exactly true. Zakir naik should be the biggest joker.
But hes influenzing many people like me. After seeing his lecture only i seriously started Questioning Islam. Because he and the muslim audience clapped for him are shame to human brian.
May be thats the only time a Muslim feels proud and they believes that what ever he saying is truth. Poor guys
45. Hampiholi | January 4, 2008 at 5:45 am
@Yogendar Patwari
“DO YOU KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU AFTER DEATH.YOU DONT KNOW. BUT SURELY YOU WILL MEET ALLAH TAA’LA.THEN YOU WILL DEFINITELY REPENT.THATS ALL I WANTED TO SAY”
How sure are you that you will meet allah after your death. Please do share some proofs and evidence. Are there any persons dead who have met allah. And where is allah now. Give us proof. Don’t talk crap and try to propogate your idiotic cock and bull stories here.
46. Nur | January 4, 2008 at 5:58 am
Actually I was a Hindu woman in trinindad and I converted to Islam after marriage to a muslim and also because Islam is a religion of conviction. We all need conviction. Hindus don’t have conviction and they are ambigious in their beleifs. Most Hindus are not sure what happens after death. Some say reincarnation some say heaven and hell and some say nothing will happen. Some also glorify their ignorance by claiming no one can know what happens after death. I met many Hindu gurus, they were all very noble and nice people but none of them had conviction. You can call conviction as blind beleif but thats fine. I am a blind beleiver in Allah because that gives me satisfaction in life. I need blind beliefs in this uncertain world and hence I beleive in Allah. And I am also happy to be among muslims because they are also very strong in their conviction. It helps me live better when i beleive in all these things.
As in Islam you are just convinced. Other than this I am a very open minded muslim. I dont of course subscribe to all other beliefs of muslims like converting others and about violence and so on. I beleive in the prayers of Islam and also i don’t have hatred for any other communities. I also do not pray five times prayers. I pray whenever i feel like praying. Its my old Hindu Habit and old habits die hard. But I am muslim as the man i love is a muslim and also it gives me mental satisfaction to beleive in allah and the jannat. I have great respect for Hinduism as many of relatives and friends are Hindus. They are a wonderful people but for me I don’t allow religion to come in between my relationship with people. For me religion is a private affair. You can call me a fake muslim and more hindu like in my beleifs but I do what i feel is right. I always try to cultivate devotion towards Allah and live a moral life. I am shocked by all the violence which go in the name of Jihad and terrorism by some of the muslims. The muslims I know are all peace loving ordinary people just like most of us here. We are all human beings. Let us live this life well and not fight with each other.
47. Yogi Narayana | January 4, 2008 at 6:35 am
Hi Nur,
It is nice to know that you beleive in Allah and islam because it is a religion with conviction. In other words it is a religion of blind faith. All religions are based on faith. Mostly blind faith. It is good that you recognize it although you still hold onto your beleifs. But as you mentioned faith is required in this world of uncertainities. Faith is a kind of anesthetic which can numb us from the pain and suffering of the world.
Also I think your ideas are more Hindu as you are quite individualistic in your approach towards religion. Most muslims will term you as a heretic and not consider you as a true muslim. I think maybe this devotion is your path and I want to suggest you to read ‘Narada Bhakti Sutra’ which is a treatise on the path of devotion or Bhakti yoga. This book talks of different stages of devotion and the means to acheive harmony in life. Also in case you want to feel more at home read the sufi mystics and Osho’s commentary on the sufis. All the best.
48. Layman | January 5, 2008 at 6:32 am
Hi Nur,
You need the blind faith to run away from truth.. Or to avoid the inflow of Truth.. You are right .. no Hindu guru can say this is the absolute.. He can’t say .. here are the rules to follow and thats final because its not there.. Spiritualism is a journey that an individual need to take.. Hinduism take you through that journey while other monotheistic religions put you in a well and say you reached the ocean. By reading your message .. you yourself is clear about that… Islam is not an answer to spiritualiy ..but it puts you in a well and say you reached ocean.
You need say .. you follow Islam since you married a Muslim or you are in love with a muslim .. Its not your spiritual quest that asked you to accept Islam.
49. Layman | January 5, 2008 at 6:43 am
Open Debate:
In open debate, there is no way you can cross verify the lies provided by one person. If somebody quotes something .. you have to listen that because you will not be able to double check it. So people can do Gimmicks to get the claps
Written debate:
You have sufficient time to anlyze and the chances of making Gimmicks is less. More importantly there are no fools to clap for you to make you the winner. You are relied only on the truth of the argument.
Ask this ? Why Zakir naik is reluctant to take a written debate challenge.
See t he challenge by Ali SIna in http://www.faithfreedom.org
50. Layman | January 5, 2008 at 6:59 am
As per Zakir Naik, all the Hindu Saints .. Swami Vikekananda.. to Mahatma Gandhi are fools since they don’t understand Islam is the true religion…
The only good people are The Khomenis , the radicals in Saudi and the freedom warriors… the Islamic Jihadists..
He himself is an example that Islam has nothing to do with Spirituality.. Look at the Muslim audiance see their itellectual level. Nobody might have read Quran.
Why Muslim women should wear veil ? Hooligans will attack them otherwise..
Why do you need to rub there with a brick .. cause allah said that
Special theory of relativity ….Its first stated in Quran
He will make the fall of Islam faster …………
51. Satori | January 5, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Nur….
It is very saddening that you have converted. You shoud have chosen unconversion. Now you are nothing but the same clown in a different circus!
I do not see any diference between the Idol worshipping Hindu,Buddhist,Taoist……..and a Muslim. They all seem to believe in something. The object maybe different but the subject is the same- Believe! For you the Koran is the belief system. And there is absolutely nothing Spiritual in it – It is just one big book of Morality. If this is what appeals the most the so be it! Impose those moralities on your children.
DR.YOGENDER PATWARI -
You seem to be very worried about death and so much bankrupt in ideas that you ask people to wait till the end to know the Truth. What if there is nothing? What if there is no GOD? What if everything just dies, including your soul. The fact that no one has come back from paradise to tell the tale proves that there is no such thing. Now this is the Truth – Nothingness!! Celebrate and be Joyful!!!!!
52. Keval | January 6, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Brilliant article. And I have even more admiration for you for articulating and writing it.
I was too concerned how Ravishankar will handle Zakir. Zakir is almost schoolboy. But Ravishankar nailed him with single statement that ‘reading the book the whole world dies..’
I have seen other religious leaders praising Islam also in other videos on platform with Zakir and Muslims clapping. BUt they do not know that most Hindus will have the same words for every religion. I too debated with some of his followers in messages exchanges following a blog. It is so frustrating, there everything boils down to ‘koran is perfect solution for mankind’.
To be frank, all the proselytizing religions are a curse for humanity, for they are the most intolerant, and most disrespectful of others.
53. Keval | January 6, 2008 at 12:54 pm
The true religion is not for them who wants to be just certain and sure. I am a total atheist and still I feel that I am the most sincere Hindu. Such freedom is hallmark of Hinduism, and without this freedom there is no growth, no religion. Zakir is deluded that Budhha also prophesized coming of MOhammad, he does not know that most argument he is making in favour of Islam were thrashed By Budhha 2500 years ago. If you read Buddhist sutras like Lankavatara sutra or Surangama sutra, and then Koran you will feel that you have travelled from the very peak of human capacity to the bottom. One of my Muslim friend read just two lines of heart sutra and could not go any further, he just could not understand simple truths, which any Hindu learns without any effort.
If you are atheist, you can not be a Muslim, Christian, Sikh. If you are theist, you can not be a Buddhist or Jain. But you can be a HIndu whether you are atheist or theist. Without this freedom to enquire religion has no meaning, it is mental and spiritual slavery.
54. Chandramouli | January 7, 2008 at 10:39 am
One thing which was quite evident in this so called dialogue was Zakir Naik was well prepared and Sri Sri Ravishankar was simply out of his wits. He was a poor representative for hinduism and Zakir Naik and his group have been careful enough to choose an idiot like Sri Sri Ravishankar so that they can make fun of Hinduism. This fellow sri sri ravishankar does not even understand what subject is being spoken about. If he is not intrested in speaking about concept of god and wants to speak of something else like love and so on then he should not be attending these meetings. He should then only address his idiotic followers who will laugh at his silly jokes and clapat anything he speaks and think they are pearls of wisdom. I completely agree with author that Ravishankar goofes up in most of his public meetings. Still his idiotic followers think he is something great intellect. He is an idiot as far as knowledge of hinduism is concerned. All he is intrested is making money and he is like a politician who goes everywhere and only talks diplomatically. It needs courage to speak truth and Sri Sri ravishankar is a coward who did not have the guts to speak truth in front of a muslim audience. He basically got afraid. All this fellow wants is publicity and he thought that just like his other meetings he can go to this place and talk nonsense and get away. But zakir naik confronted him and ravishankar became afraid and since he is a coward and a politician he could not stand up to his beliefs.
Also one more thing this people from art of living had come to our college campus a couple of months ago and I noticed that they are still selling that book on islam and hinduism. Ravishankar had promised that he will remove the book from circulation after he was blasted by zakir naik and to get out of that situation like a coward he promised it. but since he is a hypocrite he will do anything promise anything and will not act upon it.
55. Chardamouli | January 7, 2008 at 10:47 am
Ravishankar claiming that his book was written in a hurry is so pathetic. That means he could not stand up to his own convictions. that means all his books and publications are publicity stunts. He is a publicity hungry conman who tries to sell Yoga so that he earns lot of money. This fellow lives like a king and his ashram is almost like a palace. Simply they talk of social service and all that. He is no match in front of a person like Osho. Osho was a man who spoke the truth. Even if he lived in luxury he was honest. But Ravishankar and people like him are completely dishonest. They are very similar to politicians. Politicians talk sweet nothings just like that all Ravishankars speeches are like politician speech. I have observed him for past two years. Even his written articles are ghost written by some people as that is not his language. He is what Osho used to describe – a politician and businessman exploiting religion for power, fame and money.
56. Swami Jayakar | January 7, 2008 at 11:18 am
Osho is a trendsetter. Lot of people especially swamis imitate him. They don’t acknowledge Osho because Osho was very controversial. I have listened to many of the gurus Ravishankar, Sukhabodananda, Kalki and Swami Akshara and many others. All these people imitate osho to a great extent. It is quite easy to make out their imitation basically they try to use the same kind of language and the kind of anecdotes which osho used to speak in his discourses. I used to listen to ravishankar about five years ago and he used to infact lift up paragraphs and pragraphs from osho and speak as if it is his original. And he also used to do all this acting by closing his eyes and acting like going into some trance and then speak. But they are also careful and unlike osho who used to be open in his communication people like Ravishankar do not offend the people in power because he doen’t have the guts. The same with sukhabodanada and swami akshara. Infact Sukhabodananda used to imitate osho to such an extent that he used to speak about some personal anectodes of osho as if it is his own.
57. Swami Jayakar | January 7, 2008 at 11:33 am
One more guy I forgot to add a Osho imitator is a certain Swami Nityananda paramahamsa who has an institute called Dhyanapeeta. He even has lifted Osho’s techniques of meditation and he never acknowledges the source. He is a word by word parrot like imitator of osho.
58. Keval | January 9, 2008 at 5:50 am
I am not a follower of Ravishankar, nor do I agree with most of his emphasis; but I do not think he could have debated with Zakir Naik. Naik, like the other proselytizing religion is extremely insecure and his behaviour harbors towards meanness. There is nothing common between any Zakir Naik and someone who write commentary on Ashtavakra Gita or Narad Bhakti sutras. I doubt even Osho would have obiliged Zakir by debating. His logic are very immature and they are travesty of reason. He thinks that memorizing and cramming is a virtue, like every muslim kid who is able to cram Koran without understanding anything is praised. THe world views are entirely different. But the deception he and his friends practice is that it is going to be dialogue about ’similarities between Hinduism and Islam’ and they dragged him and immediately started attacking HInduism and started preaching Islam. And even the stupid Hindus there, the audience were clapping and applauding him. WHat is the value of memorizing?
Does it mean anything? I do not think that any Muslim wou
59. Keval | January 9, 2008 at 5:58 am
Contd..
I do not think any of the semitic religion can even begin to understand anything. They would have to leave ritualism and develop intellect and reasoning first. THey would have to be trained in logic and methods of debating. Otherwise it is very frustrating. IT is like a quantum physicist debating with some memory savant who has crammed one or two books about quantum mechanics.I have tried to debate with muslims and trust me, it is extremely frustrating and boring, and futile THeir world begins with Koran and ends in Koran.
60. Indic Philosopher | January 11, 2008 at 9:45 am
I think it is a waste of time to debate an Islamic person trying to convert everyone to his point of view. ALso since everyone are solidified in their belifs no conversion is possible.
61. A BELIEVER | January 13, 2008 at 6:17 pm
“All muslims bow their heads towards mecca for their prayer. Allah is an extremely localized god. ”
just to let you know…
muslims face mecca just to have uniformity …. its just direction ..indicating belief in SINGLE and ONLY God….that direction would have been any city …
they dont worship kaaba, its just for setting the direction…even people used climb on it to call for prayers !
other thing which I noticed is that…people are upset about muslims being aggressive in proselytising… sometimes that may be right…
but com’on can someone has answer Zakir Naik about verse and quotations he gave from Hindu scriptures !!! which I doubt any one among you would have heard…just think over it…
yes he may eccentric in always giving the verse and chapter no. it is bcoz he thinks a sincere seeker of truth will go and see for himself…im being no apologetic to ZN but Islam believes in logical arguments … so if any one tells you this is how something works you should ask him about where has he learned, heard that … get curious to know the source of information… but in case of religion on which most of our (not atheist’s ) values, behaviour will be based is not critically analysed, which scripture has said that which shankaracharya told this, how one is to arrive at conclusion … ? or just we have to perform mental gymnastic by making our own conjectures
islam did not came into existance 1400 hundred yrs ago …it has been there since first man put his feet on earth….it is only Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) who muslim consider last messenger who came among arabs …now why arabs why not hindus …why not europeans is open for argument…
and Qur’an tells us that it is not onyl arabs, jews, christians were given prophets every nation was provided with a divine guidance in the form of prophet at one stage or another…so thats why we see so much similarity among various scriptures of Hinduism and say islam…and about dissimilarity specially related to divinity … I can only attribute to “non-divine intervention” …now why it is like that it is open to debate…so it should make clear that arabs and jews and any monotheistic religion cant claim (though jews claim !) that they are chosen people of god … Infact it is obligation on every believer guide his fellow brothers to single family of GOD…which I would say “Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam” (sorry for poor sanskrit)
It is not that god as a ruler has laid down rules for human beiings … It is bcoz GOD who loves his family (not “father and child” relation pls !) infinitely more than a mother loves… GOD as creator knows whats best for his creation … and has given framework for human beings (dont lie, be honest, pray..) so if any one follows them…will benefit himself …and GOD is devoid of any need nor any benefit he receives …
so before overruling any one please check the facts … have some “basis” other than OSHO (any other swami) said this therefore I believe…it is not that all swamis are not aware but I doubt their teaching is based on any thing related to Hindu Scripture themmselves…
Yeah, some will note that Zakir Naik told is right there in Scriptures (that there is nothing like GOD )…but Scriptures also say to worship elephant god (ganesh) who has definite looks …which I suppose we have contradiction at hand … which Hindu scholars and public in general needs to address which is correct and which is not…and if this activism (not tolerating contradictions) then we’lll see more spiritual and progressie society as a whole
-thanks
62. izam | January 17, 2008 at 5:44 am
Muslims can’t take criticism. They are indeed very parochial: from the very birth of a baby, religion is spoon-fed; a religious lullaby is sung to put him/her to sleep, compulsory religious education and the like. They insist that a child must be taught to pray before the age of seven and if he/she doesnt follow the rules before the age of ten, shall be forcefully put to pray. The true-believer syndrome has caught them by neck. They don’t wanna see anyone other than mohammad. It’s obvious that Mr.Naik has a very peripheral knowledge of Osho.
63. Zoheb | January 20, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Nice article. It was a good read. By the way, I just got back home from a lecture on world religions by ZN…definitely noticed the quotations
I agree that Islam has a very rigid belief system, but lately Ive been looking into Sufism, which is the mystical side of Islam. It is very, very similar to Vedanta. You guys should look into it if you havent yet. Im sure you will find it interesting…
64. Aditi | January 24, 2008 at 11:50 am
DR Acharya – a wonderful article! personally i’ve never seen a dumber ass than zakir naik. he’s someone who doesn’t understand the ’s’ of spirituality. he’s dogmatic, boorsih and fundamentalistic and seems utterly confused in his head about what he’s talking about. feel sorry for muslims if they really are fooled by such a clown. honestly, he’s like a jabbering nut
i wonder if you’ve read any of Sri Sri’s books lilke God Loves Fun, Celebrating Silence and Wisdom for the New MIllenium. perhaps that would change your view of the guru as his wisdom is infijnite in the books and one can imagine how he has such a mass of followers after reading those books. i saw the ‘debate’ and agree that Sri Sri did not address the topic ‘cocept of God’ as well as he c/should have. however his presence had a pleasing, calming effect and his talk about accepting diversities and loving all was inspiring. one might criticise him for using his heart more than his head, but he does have a big heart!
as for osho, he’s absolutely outrageous and wonderful. he’s struck the truths – celebration, love, no rules and restrictions, freedom, bliss… unfortunately he could not lead us to his preachings through the actions he proposed.
the only teachings that encapsulate the real truths as per me are the ancient vedic texts. i have never expeienced such purity of thought and clarity of mind as the arya samaj way of life proposes. their concept of God and preachings alone can lead man away from the doom that he has spelt for himself.
65. muhammad saeed | January 27, 2008 at 6:26 pm
i would like to request the non muslim to plzzzzzzzzzz try to understand mr zakhir naik that whats he saying she is not aganist of any religion he is telling the truth and if u will listen hin hambly then u will understand that whats he saying
66. Pushpa Raj | January 28, 2008 at 5:45 am
Thanks for the article. Osho was the rarest of the rare. For all those who love rules and commandments read Osho’s Ten commandments:
“You have asked for my Ten Commandments. It’s a difficult matter, because I am against any kind of commandment. Yet, just for the fun of it, I write:
1. Never obey anyone’s command unless it is coming from within you also.
2. There is no God other than life itself.
3. Truth is within you, do not search for it elsewhere.
4. Love is prayer.
5. To become a nothingness is the door to truth. Nothingness itself is the means, the goal and attainment.
6. Life is now and here.
7. Live wakefully.
8. Do not swim – float.
9. Die each moment so that you can be new each moment.
10. Do not search. That which is, is. Stop and see.”
67. umarul farooq | January 29, 2008 at 10:47 am
zakir naik represent a school of thought called wahabism or salafism.wahabism is a reactionary thought against another school of thought called sufism or traditionalism.Both schools draw their inspiration from islamic scriptures Quran and the Sunnah.sufis allege wahabis as those who got inspired from modernism and its reductionist atitudes so that they lost the spirit ie the spirituality of islam.the reply of salafis is that their inspiration is only from Quran and sunnah and not any trends inthe social and political scene of the world.salafis allege sufis are influenced by christian greek persian thoughts and indian vedantha.sufis replys that our inspiration is from Quran and it is very natural that all relegions having some similarities because the base of all relegions are preached by prophets send by god to the various parts of world even though time had made some additions and deletions inthe beleifs.
salafism dried up the islamic theology as they are very dogmatic and do not consider the past centuries of islam and islamic civilisattion as an inspiration. they read islam in literal sense.on the other hand sufism made islam very ambiguous just like vedantha so that the philosophy looks very beutyful but there is no any strong criteria of moral values. so anyone can define his own deeds as the truth.extreme sufism reaches more or less at the level of advaitha ..extreme salafism made islam a very machanical relegion.so salafism made islam very rigid whereas sufism made it is very ambiguos.the truth is in between.salafis preach islam in a very polemic style whereas sufis do not preach islam in a missionary style.most of indian muslim ancestors where reached in islam through sufism.both schools got ample of evidences in islamic books.Actually both groups has got their own role in keeping the balance and also in preaching the islam.So what Zakir naik doing is an islamic work eventhuogh there may be some lack of balance and HEART in his preachings.debates and dialogues are necessary to make a society helthy.
My disagreement with hinduism is that in this relegion any one can argue what he is doing is right. so even fascists can make use of the relegion.islamic terrorism can be proved to be unislamic very easily by using Quran where as you cannot question narendra modi on the base of any hindu texts because there is no fixed standards.
68. Autumn | January 29, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Umarul Faroog
My disagreement with hinduism is that in this relegion any one can argue what he is doing is right. so even fascists can make use of the relegion
Actually this is the case with most religions. Islam has had its share of fascists and dictators. In fact much more compared to other religions. The islamic invaders looted and plundered using the Quran as their basis. The organised religions all of them are a problem including islam, hinduism and christianity. All the religions have led to violence.Islam of course has exceeded all other limits of violence. The more organized a religion the more violence it breeds. We have so many examples. Now considering all this why should we go back and interpret and reinterpret books like Quran or Bible or vedas. Humans have their own innanate moral sense. This moral sense depends a lot on the humanistic value system of a soceity. The islamic religion adopts the moral system as pervalent in 7th century arabia. Scholars break their head and interpret and reinterpret these ideas based on the current pervalent moral systems. These prophets are no great moralists infact. I am not sure why we should go to religions we have many other philosophical schools which propogate higher moral values. Gandhi got his teachings of Ahimsa from Hinduism, Jainism, christianity, tolstoy, thoroea. We need to seek the core of the ethical teachings irrespective of religions. Why confine ourselves to just one religion and one book. Don’t we have common sense that we need to be told by a book that we should be moral and non violent. Have these books helped in any way at all.
69. Hrishi | January 30, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Post reading Mr.Umarool’s comments – Im not quite sure I understood what he’s trying to say, but let’s understand that there’s a huge difference between religion as popularly understood and practised and spirituality.
Spirituality looks at giving ways to transcend the mind – to go beyond mentality with its thoughts and emotions, and to reach the consciousness that lies beyond (and behind) it. Religion on the other hand looks at giving commonalities of mythology, beliefs (in thoughts), morals or codes of conduct, and shared practices and customs, to-do’s to bring a relatively heterogenous group together under one umbrella or one banner. It definitely has its strong points – just as parental care of offspring has its strong points (for survival) in many species. But – it needs to be grown out of – to be dropped in the same manner we drop our needs of childhood and adoloscence if we are to make it to adulthood. Codes of conduct arrived at rationally and logically, and in the best scientific temper always open to re-look and improvement, is best enshrined in a consititutional democracy that is secular. In adulthood constitutional democracy and rule of law is far more appropriate for the modern world.
What Osho speaks of (and for that matter the essence of Hinduism/Jainism/Buddhism and some argue Christianity) is Spirituality. Organised religon is best typified by Islam and to discuss Osho and similar teachers with this in the same breath is probably like discussing apples and oranges
70. afsal | January 31, 2008 at 3:46 am
hai bhavani..
did you heard a proverb “every thing seems like yellow to the jaundicide man”.
dont make yourself a jaundicide…!
atleast, try to read the quran at pleasant mind.
I am not ready to blame you. bcoz, actually u r not understood abt the islam.then how i can blame.
you hav said..talaq…talaq..talaq..
these 3 talaqs are the time to return a relationship to peace, not a chance to neglect a women.
every cruel mind definitely contain a good corner, this corner can enlarge any time.
thn,
other questions you have asked,
I am not an idioi at ll to answer you.
you please try to find the truth with CLEAR mind.
71. Colonel Jennings | January 31, 2008 at 5:02 am
Hrishi
What you write about religion and spirituality is insightful. The theosophists had a classification of religion as esoteric and exoteric. The esoteric part of religion is the spiritual part and the exoteric is the related to the social practices and which in a way should lead to the esoteric practices if taken in the right spirit. In case of Islam the exoteric has taken over to a great extent – especially the Wahhabhi version of islam. This version takes everything written in the Quran literally. There are other traditions in islam like the Sufi and the Bahai tradition which also give importance to the spiritual. But all these are treated as deviants and outlawed from the framework of orthodox sunni-whahhabi islam. Wahhabi islam is gaining increasing control of Muslims all over the world. Now with the victim conciousness of muslims gaining momentum they are increasingly going towards radical islam. Radical islam gives them an Identity which is very much required for them during a crisis like this. All progressive elements are being debarred from their community. Zakir Naik just reinforces the radical and literal version of Islam.
“Organised religon is best typified by Islam and to discuss Osho and similar teachers with this in the same breath is probably like discussing apples and oranges”
Apples and oranges – I don’t think that would be an apt analogy. Maybe chalk and cheese —
72. haseena1969 | February 1, 2008 at 11:55 am
Muslim Guys Love to Flirt, Marry (and Dump) Non-Muslim Girls
You’d have noticed that Muslim men are mindlessly restrictive in giving away their girls (the true Dalits) in marriage to non-Muslims. Muslim boys and men have a tendency to run after Hindu, Christian and other non-Muslim girls as they find them more modern and attractive compared to their own women. Besides, they also have a religious fervor to convert those girls and make them Mohammedans.
Why is it that Muslim boys run after non-Muslim girls?
There are many reasons:
(1) First, Muslim girls are mostly kept in the confines of their homes and most of the time they are not allowed to mix with boys. The repressed lust of the Muslim boys finds a vent when they interact with non-Muslim girls whom they find gullible and easy to flirt.
(2) Second, they get support from the members of their own community. Muslims love to see their men flirting non-Muslim women. It’s an act of chauvinism and communal pride. Muslims feel macho at such instances of Muslim guys befriending non-Muslim girls and see the other community as feminine and Islam as masculine.
(3) Third, Muslims have big families. You’d come across examples where the youngest son or daughter of a father is younger in age compared to his eldest grandson or grand daughter. Muslims breed in their old age as well. Islam prohibits bachelorhood. The compulsions of the big families and poor standard of living force them to think out-of-box. They cannot leave Islam. They would be called “Murtad” or apostate which is a grave sin. As such, they want to improvise their lifestyle by marrying non-Muslim girls and convert them to Islam.
(4) Fourth, the Muslims think long-term. They have not forgotten the fact that their co-religionists ruled India for centuries. Today they are out of power. Marrying Hindu women gives them temporary pride to feel chauvinistic. They feel that India would become an Islamic state through high rates of breeding and slowly converting the Hindu population into Islamic fold. Marrying non-Muslim women is one of the several things that they can do.
Do Muslim Men believe in Secularism?
Muslim men do not believe in secularism – else they would not have resisted attempts to provide equal rights to their women. Muslim women are the true dalits of India, denied basic freedom for centuries. Think of Shah Bano – the poor woman who could not even claim reimbursements from her husband. It was a big blot on the secularism of this country. Find on Google to read more about Shahbano – you’ll find countless articles. Muslims believe only in one thing – Islamic chauvinism in the name of Allah and his prophet.
The fundamentalist Muslims are not wayward Muslims. They are true Muslims in a way that they act as per the tenets of Quran and Hadith. Take for example, Taliban. If you judge the Talibanese in terms of their commitment and honesty to Quran, they are far truer Muslims than the likes of secular Sanjay Khan who gave his daughter Suzainne in marriage to Rithik Roshan, a Hindu heathen. The fundamentalists are not bad Muslims – they are true Muslims – at least, in their sincerity to the Islamic scriptures.
The story of Muslim ghettos – how many Dalit Muslim Women have you interacted with?
Have you ever visited any Muslim ghetto? Do you feel you could interact with their women? Most of the Muslim homes (in ghettos) have goats and have pathetic sewerage systems around. You’d find their colonies predominantly loitered by boys and men (in lungis), and the women folk mostly in their burqas (veil). How’d these guys then flirt their own women? Muslim boys pick up the details of human sexuality even before they reach the fifth year of their age. How? They have big families and most of them stay together in one or two rooms. From their very childhood, they see their parents making love (or fighting) on bed. Among the poor families this is even more common. It’s a fact that Muslim boys pick up the intricacies of human anatomy at much earlier age. When these children read Quran (such as Surah II, Ayat 222) they come across things such as “menstruation”. [They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them until they are cleansed…] A madarsa-going child of 5 years age can easily understand what menstruation means – how could you doubt he would not know other things!
Mrs. Haseena Khatun, MA
Editor, Khawatein Voice
http://www.khawatein.blogspot.com
http://www.khawatein.wordpress.com
73. Umarul Farooq | February 2, 2008 at 6:09 am
Mysticism in relegion,be it islamic sufism or hindu vedantha is just like piece of a good art or a poetry.It gives us happiness ,it touches our heart,it helps us to forget the hard realties of this world and to get relieved.spirituality is necessary and human mind is created by god in such a way that it always search for a comfort from a supernatural force.Human mind is created in such a way that it never get satisfied with the physical meanings of matter and world, it is not ready to stop its search for the meaning of existence in periodic table of elements.It is due to this fact that God gifted us a part of spirituality and mystic elements in all of the relegions.All of the prophets helped their disciples by giving ways to attain spirituality.It is from the teachings of prophets all mystic ways evolved from vedantha to sufism.But as and when time passed mysticism also got corrupted.( It is another subject).But the duty of the relegions not limiting in giving spiritual solution.It is only a part of the relegion.The main aim of relegion is to provide value systems,eternal value system.All of the existing values human values are founded and retained through relegions.It is only after europian renaisance the secularism became the source of values. till then it was relegions which provided the world its values.After renaissance science took the role of relegion.now all of us are ruled by the values of science materialism and western style secularism.All are compelled to explain everything objectively.That is why our Zakir naik is compelled to explain his convictions in dry material language.He know like everyone of us everything in this world is not explainable by human words. But he is questioed by atheists what is the evidence of prophethood of muhammed.No one be it a oshovadi, advaithi ,atheist can explain this world.That is why osho is escaping by telling some pseudo-deep jokes.Even though he pretends to be a guru he do not give answers.He states that i am not a man to give answers.But what his disciples want to get from him is Answers,which known to him also..But Osho is far better tha an atheist.It is for an atheist it is most difficult to define what this world is.Any relegion or any guru is far better than a an atheist to understand human nature.What happened after sceince and material secularism took the role of relegions. Everything is defined based upon the material gain.Our environment our humanness all got spoiled.Value became the amount which can be aspirated from a relation .The more educated people are more antihuman.It is the most materially educated United States is attacking human beings throughot this world very cruelly.It was educated and affluent middle class people in Gujarat who led the mobs for mass rapes and killing humanbeings.Why you are silent about Muslim terrorism?.A man of Balance will ask me now.Muslim terrorism is a most mysterious thing now. Thruoghout the World one argument going out now is it is america itself which is behind most of the terrorist groups. Benazir Bhutto just days before getting killed told in an interview with BBc that Al queida in Pakistan is controlled by america .This part of the interview is edited by BBC but available in internet.Even if it is some muslims behind terrorist attacks there is a great difference.Most of the time one man is going with a bomb to people and explodes; that man may be a lunatic, drugg adict,psychopath,or one who got attracted by huge sum of money to his family.So most of the terrorist activities are done by one or two anti human people.But what was the situation in
gujarat?.Each and every mob was of about 20000 men strong who conducted gang rapes ang cruel killings and dancing with victims burning bodies.In the land of our holy vedas. Even now our people do not repent.They elected the leader of riots.In America is also the same situation.An\ democratically elected government is doig all the cruel attacks.Muslim people had also done a lot of cruelties.But muslim common man in masses never can support atrocities.Islam has got some influence on its people even now so that one sided mob attacks with popular support against minorities never happening even in the worst Pakistan and Bangladesh.Bangladesh has got large number of minorities you know.Sorry for putting many irrelevent things in a spirituality discussion my hindu friends.We can together come forward with the help of spirituality to fight against all types of fascism.At the same time kindly allow me to be proud of a relegion which has got a set of values which are not flexible but are eternal .\.Even modernist secularist values are far behind islamic values (otherwise Narendra Modi and George Bush would not have happened.)Islamic NGOs and islamic political and relegious movements are there even in India which are even though not that conspiciuos are working for the upliftment of the nation and the people inspired by islamic spirituality and values.I request my Hindu brothers to notice them withuot depending on the biased media.And help them without giving much importance to the ideological differences.Dialogue and Co operation at the same time.Forgive if some preacher is hurting your sentiments(because you are strong by force,so your forgiveness will not be considered as weakness).Even our Zakir naik has changed his style much in the recent conferences.
It is also important to notice that the most illiterate most financially backward most humiliated most suppressed and most doubted community is
muslim community in India.
( Someone in this forum alleged that it is muslims who destroyed the alexandrian library.but my references revealed that most of the reputed historians have rejected this allegation.Majority opinion is the incident was commited by cruscaders.)
74. Jennings | February 2, 2008 at 8:31 am
Umaraul Farooq,
Osho had deep insights of human situations and problems. He had a much higher understanding as compared to Islamic teachers and Quran on Human mind, soceity and culture. He even used Humor as a psychological deivice to uncondition rigid people. It is these rigid beliefs that lead to violence and genocide. That said I do not agree completely with whatever osho says and neither does Osho ever said that you should agree with him. He gave a new vision to see for yourself the world through awareness and self exploration. The teachings of Quran and Zakir naik are too silly and juvenile as compared to the teachings of Osho.
What is this value system of Islam are you talking about. The veiling of women, polygamy, killing of unbelievers, holding to the fact that Islamic way is the only right way and all else would be damned, terrorism. The Quran condones violence. Muhammad himself presided on several genocides. That said I am not saying narendra modi, george bush, osma bin laden, hitler and stalin are not guilty. Muhammad is also one among this group.
What is needed in this world is to grow towards humanism and accept the freedom of religion and belief and stop shouting like Zakir Naik that some medieval book has all the answers in the world. Any person with intelligence can see through such a view point. You are against materialism and capitalism of the west. It has its bad points but as they say it is the least evil of all. Do you think ruled by sharia and the ummah a la Kohemeni or talibani mullah muhammad omar is better than western capitalism. If western capitalism and secularism is wrong that doesn’t make islam right. Infact islam is too low in the humanitarian scale of values to even contend for such a position. I agree with the author of the article that islam has nothing better to offer to people who live by humanitarian and democratic values. Can you give any example of a historical humane islamic society. If quran could not produce such a society in 1400 years what makes Zakir naik to think that it can produce such a society in the future. Even if the whole world becomes muslims there will be fights and violence (infact more). Islam has no answers to the problems of the world. It is a failed religion whose only hope of thriving in this world is through domination, false propaganda and violence.
75. paresh shah | February 4, 2008 at 9:00 pm
I have listened to many of the gurus Ravishankar, Sukhabodananda, Kalki and Swami Akshara and many others. All these people imitate osho to a great extent. It is quite easy to make out their imitation basically they try to use the same kind of language and the kind of anecdotes which osho used to speak in his discourses
.. osho is a trendsetter quite obviously. i have listened to many myself and agree that one can notice the influence. while swami sukhabodhananda imitated paragraphs, gurumayee reproduced, i doubt if ravishankar still follows osho style anymore. similarly i feel swami akshara resembles pretty much like osho but sounds a lot like UGkrishnamurti’s. Nityananda sometimes appear unabashed in reproducing osho. Kalki is the most unimpressive i have seen and heard. swami skahar has the singsong melody to his voice which is more like osho but the comparison can end there. Swami Sukhabodhananda comes out with some original stuff sometimes but his crude ways of loud delivery makes him very different from osho’s. kalki talks like a school master and the heavy accent in nithyananda can be his unique style. Dr naik is such a dull and insipid speaker and his endless quotes can tire you out, mean while osho had an unique accent himself. He can never say sky but isky. swami akshara speaks the most refined english of them all.
Next jaggi vasudev who is another osho influence, speak better english. Ravishankar neither can speak nor sing but he still does both. Nithyananda is good in dancing while sri sri is good at romping and chuckilng.
76. naik | February 5, 2008 at 7:49 pm
osho is just great.
Ravishankar is just a common cunning man.
Naik is a piece of shit
my views
77. Sampath | February 7, 2008 at 6:46 am
Zakir Naik completely Refuted
Recently, it has become a fad for all Islamic websites to publish Dr.Zakir Naik’s( An Islamic Propagator from India ) and Dr.Abdul Haque Vidyarthi’s article on Muhammad foretold in Hinduism. It is a well know fact that the same websites insult HINDU scriptures, their idols, their ideology and criticize them vulgarly. But their desperation leads them to cherry pick some verses from Hindu scriptures and decipher them in their own terminology and claim that many mantras point to MUHAMMAD. Let us take some of the alleged prophesies of Muhammad in Vedas. Any internet search engine containing the worlds Muhammad and Hindu returns a large number of results on this theme. A number of textual proofs are given in support of this claim. While this comforts the faithful, let us analyze these proofs rationally and see whether the claim holds up under the clear light of reason, not fogged by religious sentimentality.
Check out this site for rebuttal of their stupid claims:
http://www.islam-watch.org/SPrasadh/ZNaikRebutted.htm
78. B V Pramod | February 11, 2008 at 10:34 am
I think in your rebuttal of Zakir Naik, you have been unfair to Ravishankar, I am no follower of Sri Sri but saw the debate.I believe what Sri Sri did was right even though it may appear like running away as there is no point in arguing or convince a close minded,prejudiced,ill informed person like Zakir naik who thinks it’s gr8 to just cram and quote scriptures without understanding what they say. As they say “murkhasya nasthayoushdam” there is no point in arguing with a fool ( and a dangerous one at that) like Zakir Naik. The debate was about common features in Hinduism & Islam and not about contradictions or which is greater as what Zakir converted into.You can argue or talk to a person who sees reason and is open, not with a fella like Zakir Naik who is closed and prejudiced, there is no point in talking to a man with jaundiced eyes, he can never understand. I think Ravishankar behaved the way he did to avoid any controverseries. If a fool uses logic, even logic becomes foolish & that applies to Zakir Naik.
In your criticism of Ravishankar , you have said “Sri Sri Ravishankar was also rubbished on stage by the renowned artist and film script writer Javed Akthar” this not correct, Javed Akthar was never on stage with Ravishankar, nor was there a moment where Ravishankar couldn’t defend himself from Javed Akthar as they never came face to face. Let me explain this, when Ravishankar came to Mumbai to Inaugurate Francois Gautiers photo exhibition on the plight of kashmiri pandits, the gr8 secularist (? or a narrow minded person?) Javed Akthar couldn’t digest it ( that being natural as the exhibition spoke about some bitter truths about his people) & made a stupid comment “Ravishankar is just teaching people how to breathe”. This was not made in front of Ravishankar. I am sure Ravishankar has the capacity to defend himself against such a stupid allegation and need not chicken out. This whole incident has been misunderstood by people and misreported by the biased 24*7 media which showed the criticism made and not the context in which it was made, & cleverly the media has covered up the fact that it wasn’t made on the face of Ravishankar so as to project him ( let’s say a hindu religious person) in bad light vis a vis a well known personality ( Muslim) who projects a false secular image. Even Vijay Karnataka ( a kannada daily ) known for it’s balanced views carried a wrong report.It was Tavleen Singh who brought the truth out & wrote strongly about this. Ravishankar may just teach people how to breathe but that’s far better than Javed’s co religionists who teach people to kill in the name of religion & are poisoning the minds of millions filling it with hate.
79. rinzai | February 11, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Osho on Muhhamad and Quran
Mohammed was an absolutely illiterate man, and the Koran, in which his sayings are collected, is ninety-nine percent rubbish. You can just open the book anywhere and read it, and you will be convinced of what I am saying. I am not saying on a certain page — anywhere. You just open the book accidentally, read the page and you will be convinced of what I am saying.
Whatsoever one percent truth there is here and there in the Koran is not Mohammed’s. It is just ordinary, ancient wisdom that uneducated people collect easily — more easily than the educated people, because educated people have far better sources of information — books, libraries, universities, scholars. The uneducated, simply by hearing the old people, collect a few words of wisdom here and there. And those words are significant, because for thousands of years they have been tested and found somehow true. So it is the wisdom of the ages that is scattered here and there; otherwise, it is the most ordinary book possible in the world.
Muslims have been asking me, “Why don’t you speak on the Koran? You have spoken on The Bible, on the Gita, this and that.” I could not say to them that it is all rubbish; I simply went on postponing. Even just before I went into silence, a Muslim scholar sent the latest English version of the Koran, praying me to speak on it. But now I have to say that it is all rubbish, that is why I have not spoken on it — because why unnecessarily waste time? And this is from a paigambara, a messenger from God!
———From Unconciousness to Conciousness – Chapter 5 by Osho Rajneesh.
80. Umar | February 12, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Firstly Osho didn’t want to speak against the quran, not because he thinks its 99% rubbish, but because he doesn’t understand it. Most of the scientific facts in the Quran, which was written over 1000 years ago, have only been discovered in the 20th century onwards, so how could these facts already have been discovered in the time of Muhammed(P.B.U.H)? Most people don’t even read the Quran and critisize it nevertheless. If they do hear anything from the Quran it will be quotes from the Quran quoted out of context. If the Quran was full of evil and violence and suppresion against women, then why isit that so many non-muslims, especially women, are converting to islam and why is islam the fastest growing religion in the world. Surely if it was full of comments against women and if women had no rights in islam then no women would convert, but this is not the case.
I like Dr Zakir Naik as he, unlike Osho and so many others, doesn’t say that other religions are rubbish. The respect for other religions, which is compulsory in Islam , is shown by him and his great knowledge of all religions is used by him, not to disprove other religions, but to bring similarities among religions and to portray the true image of Islam. Every person against Zakir Naik is saying that he speaks infront of a muslim crowd, well no-one is stopping non-muslims from attending the debates, in fact they are wanted to come by Zakir Naik, so that he can show non-muslims that Islam is not a religion of violence but a religion of peace.
81. Vimal De Souza | February 13, 2008 at 5:59 am
Umar –
What are those scientific facts that you are talking about. You can find scientific facts everywhere in all ancient scriptures. The water cycle that Zakir naik quoted from Quran is completely debunked:
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Rebuttals_to_Zakir_Naik
You pick nostrodomus prophecies or some hindu puranas or bible or any such scripture and you can find some science in it. Even if Quran did contain scientific truths it is worthless in the modern world. It is similar to the RSS and Sangh people claiming that even missles, quantum physics, test tube babies and aeroplanes and their technology are described in their vedas. Even if it is described it is worthless unless you translate them into utilitarian things in the modern context. Can you let me know how Quran has helped in the scientific development of the islamic world. There is no science in the Quran or Vedas. What is present is some stray explanations for which scientific explantations are overlaid by people like zakir naik. In case of Hindus it is the RSS who talk of all these science in vedas stuff. The christian fundamentalists also speak of christian science and creationism. Just because many convert to Islam does not mean it is right. Majority may not always be right. In fact the highest conversions that is happening now in the modern world of George Bush since the last 6 years is to Christianity. After Bush has come to power there is an increase in christian conversions and evangelical missions have received funding. Majority of the population of the world are christian. Then based on your argument they should be right. As they say might is right. So is christianity the best religion. Religion is propogated using the might of power and money. That’s about it. When did religions become harbinger of truths.
82. Vimal De Souza | February 13, 2008 at 6:07 am
The islamic invaders ruled the major part of civilized world in asia and europe and spread their religion when they were the most politically powerful and rich. Afterwards their expansion was put to a stop in Europe by the powerful europeans through the Vatican and they started the crusades. If not for the crusades and the powerful european countries Islam would have conquered Europe. Now after industrial revolution Islam is on the wane although you can find numbers increasing the world population is also increasing. It is due to the perto dollars that Islam is alive in the modern world. Once that goes Islam also will be relegated to history. The petro dollar rich arabian countries encourage wahabbism and people like Zakir naik thats all. It is all money my friend. You can find truth in any thing even in a grain of sand as the poet yeats once mentioned. Quran also has some truths in it but as Osho mentioned 99% is just rubbish with some pearls in between. It does not require great scholarship to see this. Just common sense my friend. Unfortunately common sense is what gets clouded due to religious bigotry.
83. Vamadeva Shastri | February 13, 2008 at 6:49 am
Umar,
Osho spoke on the Sufis because he could find such great truths in them. So did he speak on Vedanta, Zen, Hassidism (jewish mysticism), Greek Philosophers like Pythagorus, Socrates and Heraclitus, Yoga, Tantra and the Bauls. He could see the common thread of spirituality in all these traditions from different religions. A mundane text like Quran which is so gross in its description of do’s and don’ts for people did not have any appeal to Osho. It is not that he did not understand and Quran is no rocket science. Quran is so mundane and ordinary that there is not much to understand in that other than follow and submit. Thats also one more reason that it has an appeal to the masses.
Zakir Naik is in no way bridging any religions. All he is doing is quoting other religious texts out of context (of course he quotes their line and verse numbers) and then he says Islam is the greatest religion because the Quran says so. He indulges in tautology and there is no logic in it at all. He can be debunked by any average intelligent guy. But all the stage, the loudspeakers, oratory and the muslim audience clapping gives it a sign of respectability to the junk he preaches.
84. Chandrashekar | February 13, 2008 at 7:52 am
Allah’s priorities are a bit skewed and I am sure Allah did not give much importance to the immediate problems of the people in Arabian countries. Why didn’t Allah include anything REALLY useful in the Quran, like how to grow crops in the desert, or how to de-salinate sea water?
85. Rafique | February 13, 2008 at 8:35 am
I was Introduced to Osho in 1989 in South Africa after Zakir Naik’s teacher Ahmed Deedat spoke about him in a meeting in Durban. My cousin dragged me to this meeting. Deedat portrayed Osho as evil incarnate. After what Deedat spoke about Osho I wanted to find out first hand what this personality called Osho really said. Why was Deedat reacting so acutely to Osho. There was something really fishy about it. I visited the Osho centre at Bramley in Johannesburg and later read a book of Osho called ‘Mustard Seed’ which is Osho’s discourses on Jesus. This man understood Jesus more than anyone else. I was completely floored. Never have I seen anyone so nicely describe the mysteries of existence. There was such love and grace in his teaching. I wish everyone in this world should read his works and practice meditation. It is his message of meditation and self exploration that got me attracted to his teachings and I am very happy about it. Osho has been such a transformation to me and I thank Ahmed Deedat for introducing Osho to me. Without Deedat I would not have come across Osho at all and would have missed the benediction.
I absolutely love Zakir Naik. Zakir Naik is a student of Ahmed Deedat. Gives the same kind of speeches and examples Ex: the one advertising of the Mercedes Benz car using sex and women.Zakir Naik has opened a pandora’s box to Muslims by mentioning Osho. Now atleast the truth seekers in the Muslim world will check out about osho. Muslim world is a highly controlled world where information is filtered and regulated. With internet and scholars like Zakir Naik talking about world religions, more and more Muslims will be exposed to truths in other religions and enlightened masters like Osho, Gurdjieff and Idries Shah. Osho always used to say that all publicity is good publicity. Osho did many things in his life even to the extent of getting negative publicity so that he can reach out to the truth seekers. It is good Zakir Naik meaninglessly dragged him in the debate on Hinduism and Islam. Now the enlightened one’s name will resound in those people who seek enlightenment. Awareness, conciousness and meditation are the aims of Osho and those who are in the path or inclined to this path will come to him. Thanks Mr Zakir Naik I admire your work.
86. syntaxerror | February 15, 2008 at 7:01 am
Folks,
you got it all wrong; Dr.ZN is a extreme right wing hindu agent ; His mission spoil the name of Islam.
87. saktiswaroopini | February 19, 2008 at 4:50 pm
If Zakir Naik is so sure that Hindu Vedic / Upanishad, Quranic messages are all one and same, let him advise his Muslim comrades to embrace Hinduism. They will definitely not feel the difference.
88. Rizwan Kazi | February 19, 2008 at 7:41 pm
So guys, it seems you all have derived from the main topic.
You all forgot that Dr. Zakir Naik proved from the Vedas that Idol Worship is forbidden in Hindusim…and lots of other stuffs with reference from the Smitis & the shrutis.
Now tell me who is lying, Dr Zakir Naik or the Holy Vedas.
Now decide yourself, go back to your scriptures, go back to you vedas and realize that God is One.
I hope you all follow Vedas if you are practising Hindus…if not just ignore me. Ignoring truth is very easy !
Peace on all !
89. Angiras | February 20, 2008 at 6:06 am
Rizwan,
Zakir Naik did not prove anything. Vedas do not forbid Idol worship. All Zakir Naik did was quote verses from Vedas and Upanishads which talk about the Transcendent purusha, paramatma or Brahman. This is just one aspect of the God in Vedas. You should understand that vedas are not like your Quran and they accept multiple paths to truth – ‘Ekam Sat Vipraha Bahuda Vadanthi’. Apart from this vedas also exhort to worship the creation and natural forces as the creation is the ‘amsha’ or manifestation of the creation. Now what is left for Zakir Naik to prove here. He has just proved his ignorance about Hinduism thats all. Just quoting a few verses here and there is no argument. Vedas can contain the beliefs of Islam and Christianity as Vedas are quite vast and it explains reality from different perspectives. No where in Vedas is it mentioned that there is a god called Allah and Muhammad is its prophet.
90. Steve Morrison | February 20, 2008 at 6:17 am
It is important to understand why Islam is so against Idol worship. In the 7th century arabia there were many different tribes worshipping different Idols. The only way Muhhamad could have united all those warring tribes was to create a single God and get all the other tribes to submit to this single god. He choose Allah which was one among the thousands of Gods in arabia. This was a clever political ploy and helped in the expansion of the Islamic empire as they started uniting under the banner of this god called Allah. This also helped in business in those ages as subscribing to a single belief system helped the arabians to strengthen themselves in their trade and market economy. Muhhamad also created a morbid hatred for anyone worshipping any other god other than his Allah as it would be determinental to the unity of the arabian tribes and hamper their economy. This is the paronia which the Islamic religion carries till date. As all fictions need to have with it the propoganda and political power to advertise itself. Muhhamad built in the means, checks and mesaures for political and religious propoganda in the Quran. Muhhamad was again not so original in his creation of Allah and he copied much from the earlier Jewish and Christian cultures which had neglected the Arabian race. Since the Industrial revolution Islam lost tis bearings of political and economic power, the prime drivers for religious expansion. The victim conciousness fostered in the Islamic religions makes it dear to certain oppressed and sub altern elements like the marginalised blacks in africa, dalits in India and oppressed people. Islam gives these people a sense of solidarity and empowerment to stand against powerful elite forces. Unfortunately for the Islamic religion its opposition to the western movements of free market and trade has alienated it from the Market economy of western capitalism. Their only link to the external world are the petro dollars which are controlled by a micro minority americanized sheiks and western corporations. My two cents on the concept of God in Islam.
91. Rizwan Kazi | February 20, 2008 at 3:28 pm
As you say brother ! As a muslim its our duty to invite you to the way of truth. If you deny NO PROBLEM. Still our job is done.
And i still demand peace to all of you here.
To your religion and to me is mine !
May Allah Guide us all !
92. Umarul farooq | March 1, 2008 at 9:01 am
First,me and the man who wrote in the name Umar in this forum are different.
I dont believe The Holy Qur an send by The Almighty is to teach some physical sciences.It is send to us to teach what is life and what is its meaning.Only one thing we can argue about The Book is there is no single word in it which is incompatible with the well proved modern science.If it describes something(in the course of teaching the meaning of life) in the physical sciences then it is correct. But trying to prove Quran is right by using modern science is defamatory to the Holy Book.The Holy Book is far deep when comparing the superficial modern sciences.Any theory in science is changeable. If we argue there is Big Bang theory in Quran and when tomorrow when it is proved wrong what we will do?.Modern sciences are time bound where as the holy book is not.It teaches us the changeless timeless values which are needed to be this universe in order.
Let us neglect the anarchists like Osho whose culture is evident by the word he used about The Holy book.His sympathiser’s comments were also giving very much information about their cultures.For Osho his life may be just happened when his parents enjoyed the pleasure.But for a believer this life has got meaning.Holy Book teaches us that this life is to represent god on this earth.An anarchist and a believer can not understand each other.When an anarchist enjoys life by drinking dancing enjoying the material pleasures and when he write pseudo intellectual articles sitting in his isolated room, the the true believer will be among people by helping them and trying to find out the solutions for their problems.
93. Haseena Khatun | March 2, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Why write and discuss so much on Islam… visit good sites like faithfreedom.org, islam-watch.org, wikiislam.com for all info on Zakir Naik, Muhammad, prostitution in Islam, sexual slavery, homosexuality, circumcision, female genital mutilation, Muhammad’s sexual intercourse with Aisha when she was 9, why Muslims touch their prepuce (front of penis) with stone after urinating, shaving of pubic hair, masturbation in Islam… and other interesting, well-referenced issues… All discussions based on Islamic literature, Koran, Hadith…
Mrs. Haseena Khatun
http://www.khawatein.blogspot.com
94. Umarul Farooq | March 3, 2008 at 10:46 am
To Hasina Khatun,
If some U S funded websites were the final solution and final answers for the queries of the mankind what an easy thing it would have been.But even an american rightist evangelist may not be that bold to state his civilisation is the best in this world.Some of the previous civilisation had made much destruction to the mankind.But only America can claim to have role in destructing even the order of this universe.Its culture destructed the environment of this universe.It succeeded in reducing the lifespan of this earth atleast to an extent.It has done things which will affect all the future ganarations.It is the worlds most cruel civilisation human beings know.Racism mixed with atheism,extreme secularism,and pseudo relegious christian evangelism;that is what is american civilisation.White christian is the most superior human being in this world.He is a superior species by evolution.All other people are inferior beings.White Christian has the right to exploit this world to whatever extent he want because he is the most developed creation in this world.
To make people escape from this type of misconceptions we have to touch their hearts by true spirituality.The true divine spirituality is owned by the Islam{not by the Muslim community which is now only a race now}.Many schools of thoughts are there in islam.No any school is representing Islam in its real purity but every group has got some good aspects of Islam.Even Zakir Naiks some times provocative preaching do its role in spreading Islam.I have lot of difference of opinions with Zakir Naik especially his style preaching and his over dependance on modern science.But when I see ZN could provoke all types of anarchists, etheists , fascists, and americavadis I see his words contains much truth.
95. yassar | March 10, 2008 at 9:56 am
i quote from the final verse of quran , not my words but gods words ,”today i have perfected your relegion for you and have given u a book that if you follow will bring success in this life and there after ,,, THE FINAL SEAL OF TERMINATION … ITS HIMAN NOT TO UNDERSTAND THE RELEVENCE OF THE HOLY SCRIPTS ,,, ALL THE RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD TEACH GOOD THINGS ,,, BUT DOES ANY RELEGION SETS YOUR MIND IN THAT LEVEL,,,, YOU GO THRIOUGH THE QURAN , IT BESTOWS MERCY FROM GOD AND IT INSPIRES YOU TO ACHIEVE THIS STATE OF MIND , WHERE YOU BECOME TOLERANT AND GOOD SOCIAL HUMAN BEINGS…OUR BELOVED PROPHET WAS DECLARED AS THE GREATES HUMAN TO WALK THE PHASE OF EARTH .. IF SMALLESNESS OF MEANS AND PASSION TO SUCCED ARE THE MOTTO IN LIFE , THEN OUR PROFHET WAS THE MOST INFLUENCIAL ,, MOST SUCCESS FULL MAN TO EVER SET IT FOOT ON EARTH… I BELIEVE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I MEAN .. ISLAM TODAY IS THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION IN THE WORLS AND INSHAALLA IT WILL BE GROWING AT THIS RATE FOREVER
AS FAR AS OSHO IS CONCERNED , I BELIEVE HE WAS A GURU WHOES OBJECTIVITY WAS TO EASE HUMAN LIFE BY GIVING IDEAS AND INSTRUCTION THAT WILL HELP HUMANS… HE AMMASED WEALTH IN TUNE OF 300 MILLION DOLLARS ,,, THAT A GREEDY HUMAN GENERATING WEALTH THROUGH TEACHINGSS ., MORE WORDS ARE NOT WORTH OSHO ALIKES… PEACE BE ON YOU
96. Suresh Raspayle | March 11, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Dear Brothers Sisters friends of ALL faiths .Why fight ?
Just look within.
Respect people and every belief systems.
Just hating and condemning others will never make us pure.
This is a poem I wrote a while ago , hope all of you enjoy it.
To all my Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Atheist bothers, sisters and fellow human beings
Poem: Save me Sai
Save me from the perils of countless desires
Here they are again
My unreasonable demands
My petty little worries
My weak desires
Rising their ugly heads
Yet, I know and I sense that slowly and gently
You are making me worthy of Your affection
How I missed simple great gifts that You gave to me -unasked
This body
This mind
This very life
This sky and light
Blindfolded I’m
Ignoring Your wonders and treasures
Yet, I know and I sense that slowly and gently
You are making me worthy of Your acceptance
How it was unnoticed by me, that You gave me
Everything that I could possibly ask and – more
This family, These friends, This wealth and fame
And still I am thirsty for the things I really do not need,
These unchecked desires demands more and more
Yet, I know and I sense that slowly and gently
You are making me worthy of Your love
There are times when days are spent in an idle talk
And at times, I am busy chasing goals
You are compassionate and forgiving and
At times, You seem very harsh and You refuse.
Such are Your mystical ways and Your unthinkable leelas
Yet I know and I sense that slowly and gently
You are making me worthy of Your grace
Sai, please accept my salutation at Your feet and grant me
Unwavering Faith of a true bhakta
And infinite Patience of a real Yogi
(A Poem by Suresh W. Raspayle)
Note : Last post had some typos. Pl ignore that post of mine
97. Salim | March 16, 2008 at 2:36 pm
This is a great Debate on America’s public radio on Islam,this is between the author of Prophet of Doom website (the favourite of Hindutuva pals) and the Muslim scholor Jalal Abulraub
watch this on youtube
watch?v=05_Cs32Z0E0
There are 3 parts -end of it was questions from listeners -dont miss it
Many anti-islamic cronies relish the writings of this website but in this public debate the very author of website (Prophet of Doom ) sounds dumbfounded
How pathetic are these anti-islam experts who write thousands of articles in their websites on Quran-but fumble and mumble when asked to produce just one verse and explain it.
98. Umarul Farooq | March 23, 2008 at 6:54 am
Please visit the following sites to know about Indian Islamic Movement
http://www.radianceweekly.com
http://www.jamaateislamihind.org
http://www.sio-india.org
99. Akki | March 27, 2008 at 9:18 am
This is only for those Stupid Jackasses And their Stupid LEaders who believe only their relegion has a meaning and others don’t.
All religions only have Prophets, Son of God but not the GOD himself. In Hinduism Krishna says, He is the GOD he is everything Life Starts from him and Ends unto him. He is the Universe. He is present in every form, In every Living and non living thing.
So all u Relious Fiends who follow their Dumbass Hypocrite Leaders can Kiss My Ass.
100. Satanic verses | April 4, 2008 at 4:58 am
i have gone through the complete articles and debate. Some where i have found out the details that Quaran was written centuries after the mohamad. It was the one khalifa who wants to save the country and to suppress the rebellions, wrote the quaran. So one thing is quite clear that this is not the original quaran which was seen by mohamad an uneducated person. so if you see the quaran it is nothing but the rule book. kind of program compilation guide. I wonder if the islam is that great then why can’t we see any real high spritual leader though there are but hidden and zakir like parrots are flying.I am really fortunate that i came in to contact with many Avadhoots and sufis who have really attain and live their simple lifes.
The only thing i understood is when ever you debate with any of the muslim, the argument they give are always childish. So being a hindu or budhist or jainist we should never talk of high intelegent ground. They will fail to understand that and start teasing you.
Rather i would like to suggest that we should come down to their level and start discussing
E.g.
1. If GOD stays in some part of heaven what is the distance from earth.
2.Why to take bath after the sex? if it is sin then why are they committing again and again?
3. If we forget the quaran which muslim in the present world has seen the ‘Allah’s kingdom and watch the processes there.
4.How long is kayamat ka din? and what is it frequency? once in a week,month,year,century.
5.If Allah has created sun and moon than they must be in his control.. If allah has seen a beautiful woman came then he may shorter the day windup his job quickly and make the kayamat ki raat long (defiantly for that woman)…LOL.
6. IF allah has all the power then why the shit he is sending his messengers always. why don not he dare to come by him self. I think he has made a deal with messengers to market his fear in this world. In real sense he doesn’t have any power.
7. If Allah is that powerful and everybody will be punished on the day of kayamat then why the hell you ppl deploy army and police for society. let the rapist rap their wives and girl Allah will take care of the justice.
8.If just reading quaran is that gr8 than why this much ill-literacy is in the Asian muslims.
9. Islam was born centuries after the mohamad then what religion he was following.
10. It has been proved by the science that Man is born almost a 50 to 60 K i m not exact about that. But let’s say 50K then so allah has created everything before then why shit he was waiting for the man to come and all of sudden released his rule book? and that is also just before 2 to 3K years before?
What the fuck he was doing till that time?
I think list can go long….
101. rajni sahota | April 4, 2008 at 11:04 am
i m a research scholar doing my research in cultural assimilation in medieval india.while looking for some material for my work i read ths article and got sadly disappointed with the responces of reader!the writer accuse osho of being materialistic however he quoted him frequently.i dont blame him as many people do ths mistake.why do you want him to do welfare work??wht he has alredy done is more than enough only if we understand him without judging him in black and white as many do.he jst teaches to live life without surpressing your desires b’coz then thy gets more powerful and block the oath of sambodhi.
and pls dont be ridicule your selves by crying ‘my religion is better than yours’
many political parties have make use of such mentality before so pls behave like responsible citizens.
rajni
102. Umarul Farooq | April 10, 2008 at 9:07 am
Please visit the English version of the following site to know more about the activities of Indian Islamic movement.
http://www.jihkerala.org
103. Umarul Farooq | April 10, 2008 at 9:19 am
Please visit the English version of the following site to know more about the activities of Indian Islamic movement.In India many islamic organizations and NGOs are working which are not spreading any type of communal agenda.They are trying to remove the misconceptions against Islam and spreading the message of peace and love.They are doing many humanitarian activities for people irrespective of their cast and creed.Indian Islamic Movement (jamaate islami hind) is one among them.Their Kerala branch’s activities are especially commentable.
http://www.jihkerala.org
104. Umarul Farooq | April 10, 2008 at 9:20 am
.In India many islamic organizations and NGOs are working which are not spreading any type of communal agenda.They are trying to remove the misconceptions against Islam and spreading the message of peace and love.They are doing many humanitarian activities for people irrespective of their cast and creed.Indian Islamic Movement (jamaate islami hind) is one among them.Their Kerala branch’s activities are especially commentable.
http://www.jihkerala.org
105. l Farooq | April 10, 2008 at 9:22 am
.In arIndia many islamic organizations and NGOs are working which e not spreading any type of communal agenda.They are trying to remove the misconceptions against Islam and spreading the message of peace and love.They are doing many humanitarian activities for people irrespective of their cast and creed.Indian Islamic Movement (jamaate islami hind) is one among them.Their Kerala branch’s activities are especially commentable.
http://www.jihkerala.org
106. Farooq | April 10, 2008 at 9:35 am
http://www.jihkerala.org
The above website also may be helpful to know about the contemporary islamic activism in India.
107. Umarul Farooq | April 10, 2008 at 9:43 am
SORRY FOR THE ABOVE MISTAKE WHICH HAPPENED AS MY POSTS WERE NOT GETTING REGISTERED I TRIED MORE THAN ONCE .
108. Joel Pastakia | April 10, 2008 at 11:39 am
Yassar believes that by simply quoting a verse from the Quran, he’s proven its veracity. What can a verse prove? Nothing. Several books make the tall claim that their respective teachings are final/absolute/best. But, where are the proofs and sensible reasonings in support? Can the Quran explain where and what hell is in terms of the subtle materials and forces constituting it? How does hell connect with the physical cosmos? Is it possible for a non-physical place like hell to be made of physical elements like fire, boiling water, etc? A big contradiction, right? Similarly, there are scores of such questions that the Quran cannot answer and in fact it comes up with glaring contradictions. Has any Muslim verified the existence of heaven, soul, angel etc in terms of their innate material-force composition and the manner they link with physical matter? NO ! Is it possible for Muhammad to have ridden a winged horse? Is it possible for Muhammad to have split the moon and then rejoined it? How? Obviously, these are so many myths. Is it possibel for Allah to create the cosmos out of nothing considering the fact that monotheism places God external to the cosmos without there being a causal link between the two? How was the cosmos manufactured out of nothing? Give the details. Obviously, none has the answer to these queries as such things are impossible, yet fools blindly believe in such nonsense. Reading a book filled with crap, don’t become morons.
109. suresh | April 10, 2008 at 3:48 pm
…So long as there is nationalism, so long as you are a German or a Russian or an American, clinging to sovereignty, to an exclusive nationality, you are sure to have war. So long as you are a Christian and I am a Hindu, or you are a Muslim and I am a Buddhist, there is bound to be war. So long as you are ambitious, wanting to reach the top of your society, seeking achievement and worshiping success, you will be a cause of war.
-j krishnamurti
110. suresh | April 10, 2008 at 3:50 pm
“You are the world, the neighbour, the friend, the so-called enemy. If you would understand, you must first understand yourself, for in you is the root of all understanding. In you is the beginning and the end.”
“If you are very clear, if you are inwardly a light unto yourself, you will never follow anyone”
— J. Krishnamurti
111. suresh | April 10, 2008 at 3:53 pm
“…I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organised… The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth… You are depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else…. No man from outside can make you free….. No one holds the Key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity…” Jiddu Krishnamurthy speaking on 3 August 1929
112. ned | April 11, 2008 at 7:56 am
Interesting post … but I should point out that Sufism, especially the philosophy of Ibn al-Arabi and similar Muslim mystics, goes well beyond the limits of pure monotheism. So I disagree with some of the commenters above. Islamic spirituality is indeed quite rich and I’ll be happy to correspond with you and list sources if you or anyone else is interested in researching this (e-mail me at ned (at) naqsh (dot) org).
My deep respect for Sufism notwithstanding, Zakir Naik is a very ignorant man — he reminds me of Sri Aurobindo’s wonderful aphorism:
“Logic is the worst enemy of Truth, as self-righteousness is the worst enemy of virtue, — for the one cannot see its own errors nor the other its own imperfections.”
Logic only gives you correct conclusions if your starting assumptions are correct. Zakir Naik’s brand of logic is based on faulty premises and so his entire edifice is easy to take down.
(Not that Osho was an angel either, as you rightly point out.)
The truth is, we need to try to emulate true sages from both Islam and Hinduism. As Hazrat Inayat Khan put it, “There cannot be a new religion, there can only be ‘the’ religion. ‘The’ religion has come again and again over the ages, but ‘the’ religion becomes ‘a’ religion when it is restricted to only one of those channels.”
113. satanic verses | April 11, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Suresh I appreciate your comment these are the very root of existence one can find only by deep in to meditation.
But unfortunately islam or muslim fails to understand that. Mohamamad was undoubtly has attain that but then after his followers were no were near to him and that’s why they have been creating illusion around him and also for them selves. So islam could became a great religion but muslims have made it stink poisions pond and now they don’t want to purify that. History has noted those who resists the change are wiped out and I am seeing this for islam.
114. suresh | April 12, 2008 at 9:14 am
“The core of Krishnamurti’s teaching is contained in the statement he made in 1929 when he said: ‘Truth is a pathless land ‘. Man cannot come to it through any organization, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, not through any philosophic knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection. Man has built in himself images as a fence of security “ religious, political, personal. These manifest as symbols, ideas, beliefs. The burden of these images dominates man’ s thinking, his relationships, and his daily life. These images are the causes of our problems for they divide man from man. His perception of life is shaped by the concepts already established in his mind. The content of his consciousness is his entire existence. This content is common to all humanity. The individuality is the name, the form and superficial culture he acquires from tradition and environment. The uniqueness of man does not lie in the superficial but in complete freedom from the content of his consciousness, which is common to all mankind. So he is not an individual.
Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is man’s pretence that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is pure observation without direction, without fear of punishment and reward. Freedom is without motive; freedom is not at the end of the evolution of man but lies in the first step of his existence. In observation one begins to discover the lack of freedom. Freedom is found in the choiceless awareness of our daily existence and activity.
Thought is time. Thought is born of experience and knowledge, which are inseparable from time and the past. Time is the psychological enemy of man. Our action is based on knowledge and therefore time, so man is always a slave to the past. Thought is ever-limited and so we live in constant conflict and struggle. There is no psychological evolution.
When man becomes aware of the movement of his own thoughts, he will see the division between the thinker and thought, the observer and the observed, the experiencer and the experience. He will discover that this division is an illusion. Then only is there pure observation which is insight without any shadow of the past or of time. This timeless insight brings about a deep, radical mutation in the mind.
Total negation is the essence of the positive. When there is negation of all those things that thought has brought about psychologically, only then is there love, which is compassion and intelligence.”
- J Krishnamurti
115. daniel | April 15, 2008 at 5:25 am
one important point . The universe has not existed forever according to all available scientific evidence. DRV should get his facts right first.
116. Bodhigarba | April 15, 2008 at 7:38 am
To Daniel,
What was there before the Universe did not exist?
Maybe thats Universe at that point.
Universe was there prior to the Big Bang.
Time is again a construct of the Human Mind. Existence by its very definition has to be beginless and endless. The forms can change. The law of conservation of energy is a scientific concept.
117. Vedam | April 15, 2008 at 7:43 am
The Hymn of Creation from the Rig Veda – Nasadiya Suktha – Mandala 10 – Sloka 129
There was neither non-existence nor existence then.
There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred?
Where?
In whose protection?
Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?
There was neither death nor immortality then.
There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.
Other than that there was nothing beyond.
Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,
with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.
The life force that was covered with emptiness,
that One arose through the power of heat.
Desire came upon that One in the beginning,
that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom
found the bond of existence and non-existence.
Their cord was extended across.
Was there below?
Was there above?
There were seed-placers, there were powers.
There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.
Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?
Whence this creation has arisen
– perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not –
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps He does not know.
118. Saif Khan | April 17, 2008 at 6:54 pm
This is hilarious. I read the article and must say it was a biased one-sided ‘opinion’ of a person who clearly feels it’s easier to give in to temporal pleasures like Rajneesh did and not to be held accountable for such lewd disgusting acts.
You non muslims think it’s not scholarly to be able to memorize and quote over 6000 verses from the Quran? Dr Naik can quote from the hindu scriptures and bible too. How many nights did you spend memorizing the periodic table or formulae for chemical reactions or accounting formulas for your finals? Does graduating with an MD or PhD define you as a scholar then? What IS the definition of a scholar? Dr Naik does not just quote those verses. My 8 yr old neice can quote verses from the Quran by heart. He discusses the verses too. I don’t agree with the way he chooses to explain some stuff but again, he does not just quote and not discuss and debate. If you think it is okay to memorize things for school, college or work in order to make more money but it’s corny to do so when it comes to God’s scriptures you have issues with being a devoted follower of your specific religion.
Islam is a violent religion is it? The two epic ’stories’ of hinduism end in battle. Even contemporary hindus here in the US who have no clue about the Upanishads or Vedas would know the stories of Ramayana and Mahabharata. The bhagvad Gita is based on a lecture given to Arjuna by Krishna on the battlefield of Kurukshetra. Oh btw, it is funny how people mention Krishna as a prophet. Did Krishna ever exist? Are you kidding me? Hindus just celebrated the birthday of Ram. Who was Ram? Forget about religious figures; people have historical evidence from the lives of people who’ve lived even before 0 BC. But no hindu can dare to tell ME in my face that Ram or Krishna truly existed. They can speculate but no one can give a definite answer. And Valmiki must be shaking his head up there.
Islam is a ridiculous religion because it has a lot of absurd laws like bathing after sex and how to wash one’s self after going to the toilet. I see. Then doctors who advise on proper hygiene must be ridiculous too. Then governments who dictate how you should live your lives,whether by having to pay taxes and pay alimony and rape women and get only a two year sentence for it , are ridiculous bodies too. Why do you wear a tie to work or a uniform and why do you have to be at work at 8 in the morning when practically speaking you don’t do anything productive till around 11 am? You have no issues following laws, rules and regulations set my man (and man is eternally fallible) but you have a problem when God sets down rules for how you should go about your daily lives? This your CREATOR you’re talking about, folks! The one without whose comman not a leaf turns! THINK before you type on that keyboard. Reminds me of an incident when my nephew stood to pray with dirty clothes on himself as he was playing outside. I asked him, ‘If you were graduating from high school tomorrow, what would you wear?’. He said he will wear this best suit and get a haircut and all. I said, ‘Everytime you stand for prayers, you are in front of the God who created you and gave you the oppurtunity to have all that you do’. He left, took a shower and changed his clothes and came back and told me he never thought of it that way. But he got what I was implying. Hope you all do too.
You think washing and bathing ‘gods’ every morning is not ridiculous? You think feeding them food ,which they obviously cannot eat since they have been carved out of wood and metal , and then throwing the food away is not ridiculous? Ram banished his wife Sita (btw Sita was not his only wife. Many ‘gods’ in hinduism practised polygamy) because of a slight doubt and you talk about talaq being ridiculous? Do you know the concept of giving talaq and how it is validated? How many muslims do you know of who hit their wives? Tell me and I will put forward a hundred sites for helping abused hindu women or battered christian women. Violence against women is a global crime and people use excuses like religion or culture to carry out such crimes. To be able to go by what the Quran says on this matter you have to be a pious muslim like the Rasool (saw) and if you are you will marry someone who is just as pious as him or his wives and when there is compatibility there is no issue of friction.
Women’s rights in hinduism? What rights do you have? What does , if anything, the vedas say about divorce? What does a woman get after divorce? What is sati (yes it might not be ‘legal’ but we’re discussing what the scriptures say here, aren’t we?) ? Can a woman bear witness in a court of law in hinduism according to the scriptures? Whom are you trying to fool? Us muslims or yourselves? Again you have forgotten what your scriptures say and have adopted a user friendly government aka man created set of law and rules and you have a problem with us muslims because we tend to hold on to what God commands us to do in the Quran.
Which brings me to my final point. All that talk about Rajneesh and hinduism and spirituality are just a load of romantic hogwash like some of the sufi ’saint’ Rumi’s verses. I mean…You dance inside my chest and no one can see you but sometimes I do and that sight becomes this art? Give me a break. We have forgotten how to be humble. THAT is the bottom line. We have problems having to be in servitude to a higher God. You hindus fast while drinking water and eating ‘fasting foodstuff’ much like christians do during Lent (absolutely hilarious) and say it is the same as how we muslims fast without even a drop of water from dusk till sunset. You just mumble whatever comes up in your mind as you folds your hands for five minutes in front of your man made statues and think it’s ridiculous we pray five times a day from dusk till night. You hindus think it is okay to drink alcohol and have fun(which encompasses disinhibition in general) because that’s what the young phase of life is for. Abstinence is a myth among you all and THAT is why you have a problem with muslims who hold on to the core of everything the Quran teaches. We are stubborn and not willing to change or mould our religion to better suit it into our selfish immoral lives. And that’s what makes you all hate us so much and deem us fundamentalists. Yes, we are fundamentalists. If we changed then our religion would not be called Islam anymore because we’d be lying to ourselves much like you do. And we will never change. Islam is the only religion which has such a great population of followers still practising it the same way it was practised in 600 AD. And the Quran is the most widely memorized religious text in the whole world. And we are proud of it. Nasrun min Allah wa fat7un qareeb!
119. SURESH | April 18, 2008 at 11:47 am
Proving a Muslim wrong does not make a Hindu better.
Proving a Hindu wrong does not make a Muslim better .
All religions have their own flaws . Lets admitt.
Let’s find out within ourselves by following ANY religion whether we have become better human beings , more peaceful , more tolerant , more spiritual . If not , by vomiting our venom against other’s religion shows where we really stand and how far away we are from the Ultimate reality . And remember , the TRUTH or GOD or whatever you may want to call HIM or HER is independent of religions and independent of what you , me , him , them think about it . Little glimpse of the ultimate reality and we will keep our mouth shut and mind our own business.
Please think about it.
“ I touch the feet of all those who have known themselves…” without any distinction, whether they are Hindus, Jainas, Buddhists, Christians, Moslems. , “I touch the feet of all those who have known themselves.” This is the only mantra, as far as I know, which is absolutely non-sectarian. It must be written on all the temples, all the churches, mosques, irrespective of to whom they belong, because it says, “I touch the feet of all those who have known it.” It does not say “who have known God . What is the object of knowledge?” There is no object of knowledge; there is nothing to know, only the knower.
120. Zeitgeist | April 18, 2008 at 11:58 am
Saif,
You call the talk about Rumi and Osho as romantic Hogwash but it is far better than the Voilent Hogwash of the Quran. Osho was a romantic at heart but he was a realist to the core. SO check before you write your typical Islamic drivel.
121. Diogenes | April 18, 2008 at 12:00 pm
I think Mr Saif Khan does not know how to read. Whatthe author of the article is talking about is not Hinduism and neither is he substantiating religious myth of Hindus. The prime objective of this article is about openess and rationality as opposed to obscrutianism which comes in from literal interpretation of Holy Books.
122. Diogenes | April 18, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Mr Saif Khan it is you who look Hilarious. Zakir Naik memorizing 6000 verses is indeed a good feat of memory. And it is just that much. There is a difference between memorizing and quoting verses and being logical. Zakir Naik’s main premise is ‘Quran says so so it is right’. Mr Saif Khan I know many people who quote religious scriptures by heart be it Bagvad Gita, Bible or Quran. Brahmin prieists memorize thousands and thousands of verses. In some sects this is their main expertise. What about it.
Actually the biggest problem with Islam which is so nicely highlighted in this article is the application of rules pervalent in Medeival Arabia to the contemporary times.
123. The Zen Stick | April 18, 2008 at 12:05 pm
I am not a Hindu by birth but I appreciate a lot of things in Hindu, Buddhist and Jain religions. I am a fan of Osho Rajneesh. He has shown me the path of meditation.
What Muslims fail to understand is Ethics is not God given. Ethics is a social evolutionary growth. What probably was right in one age and time cannot be right in another. Islam sanctions stoning of WOmen for adultery. Is this right? Mr Zakir Naik has condoned many such medeival practices as mentioned in Sharia. He has even openly supported groups like Taliban. The most violent people on earth. T
Just because Zakir Naik has a great memory and can quote verses from Quran does not make it right. It is indeed despicable to see Women vieled and herded like cattle in Islamic soceities. It is not that Hindu scriptures do not have oppression of women. Every scripture in the world was product of their times and hence they describe the ethics and sociology of their times. This is as much true for the Quran as to the Bagwad Gita or Bible. But Hinduism and eastern religions is less dogmatic and relies less on rules and more on spiritual growth. The esoteric portion of hinduism is the essense of all religions and are not related to social practices. But Islam is a fanatic dictatorial religion and there lies its danger both for its own people and others.
It is indeed exteremly funny that you call upon Hindus to prove Rama and Krishna, Can you prove whether Allah exists. Can you give objective proof not some Quranic verse like that parrot Zakir Naik. Hinduism does not depend on Rama and Krishna and can even exist without them. But your whole Islam is dependent on the fictitious allah for which there is not a shred of evidence. Please give us any proof for your invisible God.
124. Don | April 18, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Islam actually is not a ridicoulous religion because it has rules like bathing after sex and how to wash after going to toilet. Many other cultures have these rules as well. The absurdity of ISlam is due to the dogmatism of its followers. When doctors can talk about Hygenie why do you need Quran. You can as well forgo the quranic verses as the modern hygenie is far more advanced with the increased discoveries in pathology, bacteriology and germs. Quran has no clue about all these things. Modern western soceity has a far higher level and conception of Hygenie than the islamic world of the 7th century. Why do you need to learn hygenie from Quran. I have travelled in the Middle east, indonesia, pakisthan and India and I am sorry to tell you that Islamic soceities are the filthies of the lot. The most dirty people on Earth are the muslims. The only place the muslims are not dirty are in westernized cities like Dubai and Sharjah. These cities are developed and architected by Western engineers. What does this prove about your Quaranic teachings. Why do you have to stick to those teachings even in this age.
125. Beawerly | April 18, 2008 at 12:20 pm
“We are stubborn and not willing to change or mould our religion to better suit it into our selfish immoral lives. And that’s what makes you all hate us so much and deem us fundamentalists. Yes, we are fundamentalists. If we changed then our religion would not be called Islam anymore because we’d be lying to ourselves much like you do.”
Oh poor you fundamentalist. We don’t hate you. We feel sorry for your brainwashed brains. Just wanted to check when is your next suicide bombing going to take place.
” And we will never change. Islam is the only religion which has such a great population of followers still practising it the same way it was practised in 600 AD. !”
Yep sure you would not change after all so much of propoganda is at stake. You need to protect your lies and live in 600 AD arabia. Wake up from your medival slumber you moron.
126. Suresh | April 19, 2008 at 7:46 am
Dear Saif Khan,
Please read the fundamentals expressed by Osho.
You do not have to believe in them ,just be open and read.
that’s ALL. You are still entitled to have your beliefs and strong opinions. May Allah bless you.
Religionless Religion
by Osho.
Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Mohammedanism — these are only ideologies, dogmas, creeds; they are only cults. The true religion has no name, it cannot have any name. Buddha lived it, Jesus lived it — but remember, Jesus was not a Christian and Buddha was not a Buddhist, he had never heard of the word. The truly religious people have been simply religious, they have not been dogmatic. There are three hundred religions in the world — this is such an absurdity! If truth is one, how can there be three hundred religions? There is only one science, and three hundred religions?
If the science that is concerned with the objective truth is one, then religion is also one because it is concerned with the subjective truth, the other side of the truth. But that religion cannot have any name, it cannot have any ideology.
I teach only that religion. Hence if somebody asks you what my teaching is, in short, you will not be able to say — because I don’t teach principles, ideologies, dogmas, doctrines. I teach you a religionless religion, I teach you the taste of it. I give you the method to become receptive to the divine. I don’t say anything about the divine, I simply tell you “This is the window — open it and you will see the starry night.”
Now, that starry night is indefinable. Once you see it through the open window you will know it. Seeing is knowing — and seeing should be being, too. There should be no other belief.
So my whole effort is existential, not intellectual at all. And the true religion is existential. It has always happened to only a few people and then it disappears from the earth because the intellectuals immediately grab it and they start making beautiful ideologies out of it — neat and clean, logical. In that very effort they destroy its beauty. They create philosophies, and religion disappears. The pundit, the scholar, the theologian, is the enemy of religion.
So remember it: you are not getting initiated into a certain religion; you are getting initiated into just religiousness. It is vast, immense, unbounded — it is like the whole sky.
Even the sky is not the limit, so open your wings without any fear. This whole existence belongs to us; this is our temple, this is our scripture. Less than that is man made, manufactured by man. Where it is manufactured does not matter much — beware of manufactured religions so that you can know the true, which is not man made. And it is available in the trees, in the mountains, in the rivers, in the stars — in you, in people that surround you — it is available everywhere.
Science is the search for truth in the objective world and religion is the search for the truth in the subjective world. In fact, they are two wings of one bird, of one inquiry — two sides. Ultimately there is no need to have two names. My own suggestion is that “science” is a perfectly beautiful name, because it means “knowing.” So science has two sides, just like every coin has two sides. Knowing in the dimension of matter you can call objective science, and knowing in the dimension of your interiority — of your inner being, of your consciousness — you can call subjective science. There is no need for the word religion.
Science is perfectly good — and it is the same search, just the directions are different. And it will be good that we make one supreme science, which is a synthesis, a synchronicity of the outer science and the inner science. There will be no need of so many religions then, and there will be no need then even for somebody to be an atheist. When theists are gone, then there is no need for atheists — they are only reactions. There are believers in God so there are disbelievers in God. When the believers are gone, what is the need of disbelievers?
There is no need to believe in anything — that is the fundamental of science. That is the scientific approach to reality: do not believe, inquire. The moment you believe, inquiry stops. Keep your mind open — neither believe nor disbelieve. Just remain alert and search and doubt everything until you come to a point which is indubitable — that’s what truth is. You cannot doubt it. It is not a question of believing in it, it is a totally different phenomenon. It is so much a certainty, overwhelming you so much, that there is no way to doubt it.
This is knowing. And this knowing transforms a man into a buddha, into an enlightened one. This is the goal of all human growth.
127. Tanapp | April 22, 2008 at 10:06 pm
A very nice write-up. But the problem with Zakir Naik, is that he gets away with his high school debate tactics very easily. It was beneath Sri Sri’s dignity to even accommodate and share the same platform – as someone said, he indeed has a very big, compassionate heart. I do not follow AOL but I saw Sri Sri not getting fluttered or perturbed throughout the course of the ‘debate’. He practiced what he preaches even when provoked by being ‘gifted’ the Quran as a treatise on Art of Living by Zakir Naik.
Acharya has done a good job clinically analyzing the cliched drivel of Zakir Naik, which every Hindu should know of. It is also high time, we started inquiring in to our own culture and tradition through Upanishads and the Gita.
Peace be. Peace be. Peace be.
128. Joel Pastakia | April 23, 2008 at 11:50 am
Hi Saif,
You say that Ram, Krishna did not exist but do you have hard evidence to prove that Adam, Ibrahim, Musa, or Isa lived? Can you prove that Allah – the invisible god – exists? How do you know heavens, hells, angels, devils exist? Any proof? You condemn idols, then why do you bow, kiss, encircle the black stone at the Kaaba? What logic does it make to do all that to a worthless, lifeless stone? Why did Muhammad kiss, hug and weep over the worthless, lifeless Kaaba stone? Why did he not smash the stone to bits like the other idols in the Kaaba? What has memorisation of the Quran got to do with truth? Are the verses of Quran proven facts or simply cock and bull stories that have been borrowed from earlier scriptures? Give me hard proofs, Saif, not trash.
129. arup k isaacs | April 24, 2008 at 11:25 am
Saif is eager to inform us that Islam is a success since the Muslim population is growing the fastest in the world. Anyway, the extra-ordinarily high birth rate of the Muslims is primarily contributing to the spread of Islam.
If quantity is what decides “winners” then we can’t expect quality to lead the way. No wonder the teeming Muslim masses are the most backward in every respect – Islam has not shown them the way to peace, creativity, humanism, rationality, compassion and other noble traits..
Besides, if Saif boasts about the growing Muslim population, then all I can say is that population of prostitutes, drug addicts, thieves, beggars, homeless, diseased is also growing together with the population of germs, mosquitoes, flies, rats, dogs and other pests. Everything crude and undesirable, like the Muslim population, is fast growing. What say, Saif?
130. Suresh | April 29, 2008 at 8:20 am
Our only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free :
Lecture given by J. Krishnamurti, in 1929, when he dissolved the Order of the Star of the East.
The Order of the Star in the East was founded in 1911 to proclaim the coming of the World Teacher. Krishnamurti was made Head of the Order. On August 2, 1929, the opening day of the annual Star Camp at Ommen, Holland, Krishnamurti dissolved the Order before 3000 members. Below is the full text of the talk he gave on that occasion. What he said then is equally valid today.
We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many people will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain.
You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it.”
I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices. You must climb towards the Truth, it cannot be “stepped down” or organized for you. Interest in ideas is mainly sustained by organizations, but organizations only awaken interest from without. Interest, which is not born out of love of Truth for its own sake, but aroused by an organization, is of no value. The organization becomes a framework into which its members can conveniently fit. They no longer strive after Truth or the mountain-top, but rather carve for themselves a convenient niche in which they put themselves, or let the organization place them, and consider that the organization will thereby lead them to Truth.
So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organizations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any organization of a spiritual kind, please understand this. I would make use of an organization which would take me to London, for example; this is quite a different kind of organization, merely mechanical, like the post or the telegraph. I would use a motor car or a steamship to travel, these are only physical mechanisms which have nothing whatever to do with spirituality. Again, I maintain that no organization can lead man to spirituality.
If an organization be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it. No one has persuaded me to this decision.
This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this: not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality.
Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussions year after year.
One newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organization in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because, he said: “What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you.” If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves? If I speak strongly, please do not misunderstand me, it is not through lack of compassion. If you go to a surgeon for an operation, is it not kindness on his part to operate even if he cause you pain? So, in like manner, if I speak straightly, it is not through lack of real affection – on the contrary.
As I have said, I have only one purpose: to make man free, to urge him towards freedom, to help him to break away from all limitations, for that alone will give him eternal happiness, will give him the unconditioned realization of the self.
Because I am free, unconditioned, whole-not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal – I desire those, who seek to understand me, to be free; not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears-from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want any thing from anyone.
You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority, which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers-a miracle-transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.
You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyze what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally. When you look for an authority to lead you to spirituality, you are bound automatically to build an organization around that authority. By the very creation of that organization, which, you think, will help this authority to lead you to spirituality, you are held in a cage.
If I talk frankly, please remember that I do so, not out of harshness, not out of cruelty, not out of the enthusiasm of my purpose, but because I want you to understand what I am saying. That is the reason why you are here, and it would be a waste of time if I did not explain clearly, decisively, my point of view.
For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World-Teacher. For eighteen years you have organized, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you a new encouragement, who would set you free-and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different-not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all the unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every Society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organization of the Star become different?
As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not care if you believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very little importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World-Teacher- partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths.
You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how many trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churches new and old – all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying.
This understanding is necessary because your belief has not transformed you but only complicated you, and because you are not willing to face things as they are. You want to have your own gods – new gods instead of the old, new religions instead of the old, new forms instead of the old – all equally valueless, all barriers, all limitations, all crutches. Instead of old spiritual distinctions you have new spiritual distinctions, instead of old worships you have new worships. You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else; and although you have been preparing for me for eighteen years, when I say all these things are unnecessary, when I say that you must put them all away and look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few.
So why have an organization?
Why have false, hypocritical people following me, the embodiment of Truth? Please remember that I am not saying something harsh or unkind, but we have reached a situation when you must face things as they are. I said last year that I would not compromise. Very few listened to me then. This year I have made it absolutely clear. I do not know how many thousands throughout the world- members of the Order-have been preparing for me for eighteen years, and yet now they are not willing to listen unconditionally, wholly, to what I say.
So why have an organization?
As I said before, my purpose is to make men unconditionally free, for I maintain that the only spirituality is the incorruptibility of the self which is eternal, is the harmony between reason and love. This is the absolute, unconditioned Truth which is Life itself. I want therefore to set man free, rejoicing as the bird in the clear sky, unburdened, independent, ecstatic in that freedom . And I, for whom you have been preparing for eighteen years, now say that you must be free of all these things, free from your complications, your entanglements. For this you need not have an organization based on spiritual belief. Why have an organization for five or ten people in the world who understand, who are struggling, who have put aside all trivial things? And for the weak people, there can be no organization to help them to find the Truth, because Truth is in everyone; it is not far, it is not near; it is eternally there.
Organizations cannot make you free. No man from outside can make you free; nor can organized worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organization, nor throwing yourselves into works, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an altar and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organizations become your chief concern. “How many members are there in it?” That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. “How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false.” I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. As I said, if there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough.
Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity.
So you will see how absurd is the whole structure that you have built, looking for external help, depending on others for your comfort, for your happiness, for your strength. These can only be found within yourselves.
So why have an organization?
You are accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are beautiful or ugly within? Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible? You are not serious in these things.
So why have an organization?
But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without beginning and without an end, will walk together with a greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding there will be true friendship. Because of that true friendship- which you do not seem to know-there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.
So these are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone. I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organizations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free.
© Copyright 1998 — KFA; All Rights Reserved
Krishnamurti Foundation of America,
founded in 1969 by J. Krishnamurti
131. Keval | May 7, 2008 at 6:11 pm
The article mentions:
“he nearest point of convergence between Hinduism and Islam can be achieved by equating the qualities of Allah to Nirguna / Nirvikalpa Brahman…”
There are also many HIndus who think that Islam is ‘bhakti’ of ‘nirguna brahman’.
I too thought that, but with all due respect to Dr. Vasu (author), on some introspection found that there is no similarity between the two. First ‘Nirguna’ Brahman can not be even approached by embodied being except only those in which ‘vairagya’ and vivek are very intense. Allah comes to Mohammad, gives various commands to Mohammad, Allah’s most instructions to Mohammad in Koran are very human, there is nothing transcendental about them. So are the five pillars of Islam, and clear division between Muslims and infidels, not only in the eyes of believers but Allah himself.
Nirguna Brahman on the other hand is that about which nothing can be said, it is totally unapproachable by mind, it is beyond mind and language. We can only say that what it is not: It is not something, which will favour any special human being (like Mohammad), It can never burn those who do not believe in it in Hell, and even beliefs in it are irrelevant as all beliefs belong to mind. It can never be pleased or displeased, it has no desire to be worshipped, it does not stand against anything (like devil), on the contrary it is the very ground of both goodness and evil, death and life, Infidel and believer, still it has not relation with anything. Those who meditate on Brahman do not go to heaven (like most pious Muslims), but become one with it, or to say in a better way realize that there is nothing besides it. Fortunately in India, we have had such persons like Raman Maharshi – whose even most mundane acts were filled with extreme vairagya and viveka.
If at all Nirguna Brahman and Allah can be compared then it would have to be said that Nirguna Brahman is the very Ground from which Allah, Mohmmad, devil or any ordinary living or non living being springs forth in existence, but Brahman does not become them. All these categories are false which appears to be truth because of the power of Brahman.
As one Hindi poet puts it
“Jasu satyata te iva maya,
bhas satyva iva jiva nikaya.”
To jiva this maya (although false) appears like truth because of truth of Brahman.
And in case if one has any concept of it, and identifies that concept as BRahman, on reaching it, would find that it is not Brahman. SO there have been many gyanis, who have said that Truth is beyond even Nirguna Bramhan- and those who understands have accepted it with great respect. But can anyone say that about Allah and not invite hostility of any Muslim.
When we go towards Brahman, our insistence is on truth, not on the word, name or image (not outer but mental)- and we consider that truth to BRahman or may give any other name.
But when we say Allah and the whole related system-it starts with word, name and a mental image and it reamains there.
Even a beginner who aims at Nirguna Bramhan has to go beyond ‘I’, me, mine; without it one would not even be attracted towards Brahman.
But whole Islamic theology, right from Allah to Mohammad, and modern muslims is trapped in the primitive concept of ‘I’ and ‘me’- the ropes which bind living beings like a monkey is bound by the roadside by showman, and keeps on dancing on the tunes of Maya and keep on creating the divisions like “belivers” and “infidels”; ” Dar al Harb and dar al islam” … and so on
132. arup k isaacs | May 10, 2008 at 10:33 am
Allah is the formless Brahman with attributes (in view of the fact that Allah is said to have 99 attributes as per the Quran). The formless Brahman (Saguna Brahman) with attributes is Ishwar, the controller of the cosmos. Beyond, Allah (or the formless Brahman with attributes) lies the formless Brahman without attributes (Nirguna Brahman) and still beyond is the Akhand Brahman (The Absolute Godhead) that serves as the supra cosmic, self-existent Source of both the Nirguna and Saguna (Allah) Brahman and needless to say the cosmos is the grossest manifestation of the Akhand Brahman.
Islam preaches the Personal God as Saguna Brahman (Allah) and goes no further. Besides, it fails to explain that the cosmos is a manifestation of the Godhead in the monistic mode. Instead, as per its monotheistic doctrine, it places Allah as the extra-cosmic God who some-how-or-the-other created the cosmos out of nothing. This is impossible and a violation of the laws of causation. How can cause (God) exist separate from its manifested effects (cosmos)?
As such monotheism is a false doctrine. Only monism can explain the cosmos from a supra cosmic source in a rational manner and without violating any of the fundamental, laws like causation, conservation and unity underlying diversity. Islam is a simple faith directed at ignorant people an is as explained above inferior, limited and imperfect.
Rise beyond Allah (the Saguna Brahman) to the Nirguna Brahman and finally to the Akhand Brahman (Absolute Godhead).
PS: Allah is a Sanskrit word meaning Ishwar. El, Eloi, Allaha are its variants in Hebrew and Aramaic.
133. Ned | May 13, 2008 at 5:58 am
Sri Sri just doesn’t seem to know what he’s doing in this meeting.
I read a bit of his “discussion” with Zakir Naik, a fundamentalist Muslim preacher in India. The fact that he embarrassed himself in front of *Zakir Naik* is quite damning.
Okay, to put my own cards on the table: before I came to Sri Aurobindo and the Mother, I grew up a Muslim in Pakistan, and later on became an atheist. At this point I know a good deal about both the Islamic and Hindu religions. I have an appreciation of Sufism and am now revisiting Islam from a Sufi perspective.
Zakir Naik is, for the most part, remarkably ignorant, I’m sorry to say. I mean I basically occasionally watch his lectures for entertainment. He’s an embarrassment to the Islamic world. Why would Sri Sri want to hold a discussion with Zakir Naik rather than some of the fantastic Sufis who have come out of India? Why not hold a dialogue with Pir Zia Inayat Khan, grandson of Hazrat Inayat Khan, who gave a very good talk at Baroda in the aftermath of the Gujarat riots? (His own aunt had been stuck in the middle of that mess btw, and it was remarkable how composed and compassionate he still was during his talk.)
Or what about Maulana Wahiduddin Khan, another great Muslim scholar India has produced, who has some refreshing new interpretations of Islam and who is very progressive and pluralistic, and has spoken out harshly against terrorism?
Sri Aurobindo’s words come to mind: what we need is a faith that is compatible with critical thinking and most importantly COMMON SENSE — which people like Sri Sri appear to lack.
All I can say is that Sri Sri wasted an opportunity to build bridges between Hindus and Muslims. And I suppose on some level he and Zakir Naik deserve each other.
134. Ajit | May 14, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Has anyone seen God? What is religion? why and for what you people fighting for? did gravitation came to existence when Newton discovered? you eat a lot you get indigestion. So keep away from mental indigestion. Every one has a ego and tries to fill his ego. if i am a seller of a book written by me i will praise a lot for my book. So everyone is trying to prove that he is the best. I will bring a book to you and say whatever is written is truth and if you don’t follow you will face the consequence!!! are you a fool to follow. Every human being have millions of thoughts. So collegrate the similar thought that we are human beings not that you are from different religion. Each religion tries to preach one goal….????GOD???….but has anyone claimed to have seen GOD? If Prophet Mohammed,Jesus Christ,Buddha…and all other prohets have seen god then is GOD creating differences in the human being? If they can see why all can’t see? Become practical and see the truth of life..pointing out each other leads to nowhere rather you are wasting your energy..history is mystery. After some decades people will ask if India was under british government? Can you remember what you did and what you ate on so and so date and time? live and lead your life what you are at present. some years later you will find people praying Amitabh Bachan, Sachin tendulkar in there house. People will make Benazir Bhutto kabar as an Dargah and start worshipping. will that lead to GOD? why are you fighting among yourself?if you want to fight then do for the poverty stricken people. The human kind that needs your help. Stop blaming each other and do things to improve your mentality and your surroundings. Be a good human being first.
135. Naveen | May 18, 2008 at 4:35 am
None of the religions can be secular today.
Faith is when we put a full stop to quest. It is the brainwashed state. Religions were the science of the past. We need to move on as science progresses. Philosophy of science teaches us honesty of quest, honesty of expression and that people claiming to know absolute truth should be given benefit of doubt.
We are as though in a forest. We are trying to find out what is the truth. Lack of conclusion is not a handicap, it is an inspiration.
136. Naveen | May 18, 2008 at 4:42 am
For a typical conversation with Sri Sri ravi shankar on secularism devoid of sycophants,Here it is..
http://system777.blogspot.com/2008/04/conversation-with-sri-sri-ravishankar.html
137. Venkat Ramachandran | May 22, 2008 at 5:50 pm
To really understand the brilliance of Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, you have to first open your eyes. You never see a hard core volunteer of Art of Living criticising any other organization or swamijis.
I hardly seen HH Sri Sri Ravi Shankar getting into an argument about any scripture. It looks that he has lost in the argument battle, in fact he won.
I went to one of his talk at NASA,Maryland and he started talking about the different types of spaces. Everyone knows space is space. But he brilliantly described the thoughts and its patterns and also talked about Radio Waves and human existence.
138. Lawrence of Suburbia | May 23, 2008 at 5:38 am
Mr. Venkat Ramachandran
Can you please share what Sri Sri Ravishankar had to say about space, radio waves and Human existence. I heard Ravishankar for some years now both in India and in US and all I find is he is a big plagiarist of Osho and mimics mahesh yogi in his behaviour. Most modern new age guru plagiarize osho but never acknowledge the source. Most of the pseudo scientific nonsense this man Ravishankar speaks has appeal to people with lower intelligence and who do not know much about the subjects spoken about. I heard him once he showed a kirlian photography of a person before and after kriya. It was similar to the weight loss adverts of before and after. Later we found in the centre that this Kirlian photo image was doctored in adobe photoshop.
Ravishankar completely was out of his moors in this programme with Zakir naik and accepted that his book in Islam was full of mistakes. A clever to come out of an awkaward situation. Not that Zakir Naik is right but the way this man behaved shows his character and his art of lying. He proved that he is a typical politician / businessman who couldn’t stand up to his convictions.
The typical art of living cult’s responses for criticism is ‘to open your eyes’ and see. It is in the good intrests of art of living cult members to examine their teacher and his business critically. Neither the guru nor his teachings are infallibe. This has been amply demonstrated in many of the meetings of Ravishankar.
139. sulochanosho | May 23, 2008 at 11:21 am
A nice point made there from Lawrence of Suburbia,
These mighty plagiarists are going to uplift the humanity to a new height. Enough of their preachings and treacherous tamashas!
140. Naveen | May 23, 2008 at 12:32 pm
How can SSRS bring militants in Iraq to discussion table by mere breathing when he himself cannot come to discussion with James Randi explaining his eternity process and other faiths of his?
The whole exercise at Iraq can only be construed as an attempt by his PR dept to get him a Nobel Peace prize.
What we need is Art of Living Honestly.
141. Naveen | May 24, 2008 at 4:36 am
Venkat,
Would like to hear what SSRS had to say about space and radio waves. I have heard of how he talked on consciousness at IISc.
We do not like to pronouce what is profound not because it loses its profoundness but it was not profound to start with but a statement to reflect one’s intellect.
142. sulochanosho | May 24, 2008 at 5:40 am
There, Naveen reminds me Butcher Bush (sorry, many of you may not like this word) when he (naveen) reveals the PR ‘tantrams’ used by ssrs to bring the ‘Militants’(?) of Iraq to Peace Table with his (ssrs) ‘breathing’ power empowered by ‘Nobel Prize’ grab passion.
The other day Bush expressed his great compassion in some context over the Iraq war: [jonathanturley.org ]
Can he end the bloodbath? Can our ssrs dare to bring Butcher Bush to the peace table, rather?
143. Naveen | June 6, 2008 at 4:02 am
Pledge for the religious leaders
I am a human being as anybody else. I believe in religions as the science of the past.I must move on today and not indulge in primitivism.I understand that religions of the past are not infallible and needs revision. I do not know of any other way than philosophy of science to find truth. If I know any other way, I shall discuss that way and bring it to the notice of the scientific community which is open to new thoughts.I shall cooperate with the scientific community to ascertain validity of the way. I realize that religion by it’s very definition means beliefs which are not validated and I shall not bring such ideas to counter development of the people or the nation. I shall use and propagate them as speculative ideas about reality and not as an absolute truth.I shall promote the reasons behind why some action might be good and not as a rule to be followed blindly. I fully understand the need to be secular in promoting truth and peaceful coexistence of ideas by discussion.
144. sulochanosho | June 6, 2008 at 10:21 am
Enstein regarded Religious Beliefs as Childish Superstitions:
The other day (May 13 2008) a news report appeared in the Guardian that a rare letter written by Einstein has been traced, after a lapse of over 50 years (of suppression). This letter reveals Einstein’s stunning views on Religion. All these days the theists’ lobby was using the famous quote of Einstein to appropriate and appease their theistic agenda: “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
But the currently surfaced rare letter would throw much different ‘good’ light as to the actual view held by the scientist. One passage witten by Einstein in this letter reads,
You may read the full news story on The Guardian
A blog on this letter: Markii.wordpress
145. Nasheet Siddiqui | June 11, 2008 at 10:18 am
Acharya ji,
I must say this was a nice effort,or a re-rebuttal to comparative religions.But one can feel the pinch,or rather the punch which some self-styled philosophers,god men and dawah practitioners have landed.Simple questions can be difficult,and can be challenging.You have a very good command over language and expression,though sometimes very flowery.But nevertheless one can see the pain of getting philosophically hijacked.
I am totally neutral,have no ulterior motives or defend any religion or sect or guru.My main concern is poor gullible people who are misused by all religions and gurus alike.
To this effect I shall worship my guru the great anti guru-UG Krishnamurty,and that was pun intended and an oxymoron.No he was not a guru nor he claimed so, I am just an admirer and respect his bold views.
All gurus/prophets/rishis promises to show you path of freedom ,liberation,whereby making you slaves of themselves first.A true guru liberates u from the Guru himself !!
I think everyone shall critically ask questions abt their own religions and shall try to see how they are manipulated thru an idea or a man,before they can attack others.
UG Krishnamurti dumped Ramana Mahrishi,Osho and Jiddu Krishnamurti.He said I am not influenced or rather will never accept to be influenced by any philosophy or intimidated by any persona.
Lots of ex – Rajneeshis went to him to find solace,but he said go away,I can give u any thing,I am just barking and so has all other so called philosophers and religions,its u who make sense out of it.He never made any money and died as simply as he lived like an ordinary materialistic man.
Now like u r promoting Osho,indirectly though I do not wish to promote UG..and he said “My teaching, if that is the word you want to use, has no copyright. You are free to reproduce, distribute, interpret, misinterpret, distort, garble, do what you like, even claim authorship, without my consent or the permission of anybody”…he has no copyright over it like SrI SrI Ravi Shankar over the Sudarshan Kriya!
I wish all these religions and gurus had this simplicity.In fact the best such people i have met are ordinary guys seeking no publicity or favours.
I must add that your understanding of abrahmic religions is as biased as their understanding abt sanatan dharma, and both are not mutually exclusive.
At the end you shall have an open mind and scientific temper,and try to be as neutral as possible to see the light,the key is not to get influenced by any idea or person whom so ever,and I see you are biased and certainly influenced by your religion and certain ideas.
-Siddi Baba
146. Aakash | June 12, 2008 at 12:45 am
Yusuf Sheik, Rabia and others of same kind,
I talk u in ur language very easy (can be called cheap as this article is written n read my very sensible people).
Well if u have not experience other religion u can’t claim what is true..rather blind faith is devilish.Which is urs(i need 2 explain everything bcoz u’ll take every possible chance to twist it as Mr Naik).Rabiya 1st read, re-read n understand other religion then claim ur trueness.(answer 2 ur suggestion).till then understand that others can be right too.
About Osho, In the article(article above written) was said that Osho was not from 1. Osho was not and never associated himself with Hindu religion. in fact for ur n ur ill informed (selectively informed)crooked Dr Naik…he was Jain.
2.He said he is not the one who made this world and hence he is not the God.
3.Attacking someone who is not Hindu but not present to defend himself is not supported by Hindus but appreciated by people like u.
4.Osho is debate can make lots of Naiks wet their pants if he would have been alive.
Noor,
Baby with weak moral…u wanted very set rules. u very so lazy that u could not utilise the liberty of understanding God and took easy path of set rules. Its good on ur relatives to accept u, its not that ur accepting them. Answer urself what will happen to a girl who gets converted to other faith from Islam and ur realise the favour given to u by Hindus. Also find out punishment of converted from Islam. God can never be that cruel to make u slave…he is one who allows u, gives u freedom.(if u don’t know…i ‘ll quote verses which state punishment for converting to other religion).
About conviction…
1. have to read all Hindu text or at least main or Bhagwad Geeta?or u very looking for ready made answers from God knows which guru(these God’s man is not Hindu religion, if yes then Sir Salman Rushdie is Prophet)
2.Have u read and understand Stanic Verses of Sir.Rushdie?
Now listen to this
u converted to Islam because of lack of knowledge and lack of conviction in urself.u tried to find out Hinduism not from research but from others in this way marketing of Islam get ur signed. Its like calling ur aunty ‘Mother’ and not trying to understand ur mother well.Sad.Promise urself to read atleast main text of Hinduism without pre-determined objectives and don’t follow any religion till then…give few years to ur desire to know truth and don’t get carried away by emotions mixed with half logic. Start looking for criticism of Islam and seek its answer too bcoz I am sure Islam was sold to u not bcoz of its Merit only but by criticizing ur old faith.
Remember this:UR WERE NOT HINDU IF U DID’T UNDERSTAND THE FAITH.
FOR rest who were offended, If u people have already decided to have an opinion this article will not help u.Sorry.Mr Naik is right person for u, after all devil always have large army.If not then read it again with any pre-decided judgment.Good luck.
BTW author…Very well written article.Lets see if we all can arrange a public meeting with Mr Naik. Not in Idgah Ground or his bais TV channel but on some neutral place.
147. Aakash | June 12, 2008 at 1:00 am
Sorry for few text errors.
read
1st line: I talk u in ur AS (I will talk to u in ur)
2.was said that Osho was not from ( NOT APPLICABLE)
3.4.Osho is debate can make lots of Naiks wet their pants if he would have been alive.( 4.Osho IN debate ……..)
4.If not then read it again with any pre-decided judgment.Good luck.(If not then read it again withOUT any……………)
IF MOHAMAD CAN DO CORRECTION Y CAN’T I;)
AFTER ALL I CAN ALSO BE CHEAP LIKE Dr NAIK.
148. SREECHETAN | June 16, 2008 at 9:47 am
Osho’s emphasis is on Meditation as you may find from one of his following discourse :
“The East and the West have gone so far away from each other, that there is always misunderstanding: neither the East understands the West, nor the West understands the East. But in the final reckoning the West is the loser.
For ten thousand years the East has chosen a path which is not of the mind – which is not intellectual, which is not rational, which is not logical, which is not scientific. And the West has chosen the opposite.
The West is still far away from reaching the final heights of rational flight. And perhaps it will never be able to reach the end, because its enquiry is about the objects outside you. There is an infinity of universe, and the deeper science goes, the more it finds that it knows nothing. Its knowledge only helps it to know, that much more is to be known, and there seems to be no end in view.
On the other hand, the East has reached its goal: it has attained to the ultimate consciousness. In a certain way, it has reached inner perfection. This creates new difficulties of misunderstanding, because the East speaks from the heights of final realization, and the West can understand only relative truths, which are changing every day.
They have also chosen to speak in different ways. The East speaks in poetic metaphors; the West speaks in terms of mathematics. The East speaks intuitively; the West, only intellectually.
It is one of the greatest problems to be solved – how East and West can come together. Their meeting is absolutely necessary; otherwise, whatever has been attained in the East, or in the West, will all disappear into nuclear smoke.
The West has never developed any meditation – it is poor in that way, very poor. It knows only prayer, which is not even a far away echo of meditation. Even the so called prophets and saviors and messiahs, have never been able to go beyond prayer – prayer is the last thing, because God is the ultimate goal.
Meditation is a revolution in religion.
It simply drops God, without even arguing against it. It is not even worthy of that, because it is a hypothesis – unproved, unexperienced; it does not deserve to be considered.
I had a friend, Professor Wilson, who was teaching in a theological college in Jabalpur. He could not understand that there could be a religion, which has no God, which has no prayer. The West, for the last four or five centuries, has not conceived religion is possible without God, without prayer. In fact it is only possible without them. They are the disturbances, obstructions on the way to religious revolution. They are the enemies.
The devil has not done any wrong in the world – he does not exist. God also does not exist, but he has done immense harm. God has kept man’s mind focused on something outside, and when you are focused on the outside, you remain in the mind. Meditation cannot be focused outside; only mind has the capacity to be focused outside. Mind cannot be focused inside; only meditation can do that. So meditation and mind go diametrically opposite ways.
It is not without reason that people of meditation have called their path the path of no-mind. But with the mind being dropped, gods, all kinds of theologies, devils, heaven and hell and their details, the ideas of sin and virtue – they are all dropped, because they are all part of the mind. And the West remains mind – obsessed – as if you are only mind and nothing more, your existence consists of body-mind, and that’s all.
In the East for thousands of years, disciples have been sitting by the side of the master, just doing nothing. It looks strange to the Western mind: what is the point of sitting there? If you go to a Sufi gathering, the master is sitting in the middle, and all around his disciples are sitting silently – nothing is happening, the master is not even saying anything. hours pass…
But something transpires – they all feel a fulfilment. When they come out, they are radiant. The master has not done anything; neither have they done anything. They just fall in tune, because both were not doing anything, both were silent.
The East has to be understood in its own ways. If somebody tries to interpret it intellectually, he has missed the point from the very beginning…”
149. x-man | June 16, 2008 at 7:15 pm
I will just respond to the original article i.e the first one. let the reader’s judge themselves
1.The author wrote “For example the Islamic prayer is only in Arabic it cant be localized in any other languages. ”
The author has been mis-informed. You can pray in any other language if you don’t remember prayer in arabic. Preferable is arabic because that is the language in which prayer was revealed. If you are 100% sure you translated right or you don’t know in arabic you can pray in any other language.
2. “All muslims bow their heads towards mecca for their prayer. Allah is an extremely localized god.”
So better read yourself.
Muslims pray towards mecca not because GOD is in Kaaba, but because of unity reason. imagine a congregation in a mosque each praying in different direction, east west, north south, southwest, south east, north east, north west etc etc… Well Islam’s aim is to unite.
Well what proof I have? If i qoute from Holy Quran then many will dislike as i observed audiences here are particulary aggressive against qoutations
3. The writer’s criticism- sky god funda…
Well God is beyond time, beyond dimensions, beyond human comprehension. This is what is taught in Vedas and Quran.
4. Dr. Zakir has wrongly understood about osho’s god and philosophy
well listen to the lecture again. Dr. Naik never talked about this. What he was telling that “some persons consider him as god”, Well and this can’ be denied. There were person’s in this world who used worship him. And Dr. Naik was telling if you are a Hindu or a Muslim and you encounter such a practice, then according to your concept of God (we have to agree that every person has some or the other concept of god, either based on some holy book, person or self created ) in Hinduism and Islam whether we should confirm or agree to such a practice. Please understand that surah Ikhla’s touchstone is only for those who believe in Islam. Or similarly, Hindu scripture’s touchstone is for hindus. Yes ofcourse here both yield same result in this case.
4. Quran is full of violence
Well those who think this are not completely correct. Yes Islam does support violence !!!! but only as a last resort against falsehood and oppression.All the wars in Quran mentioned were all fought in self defense by the muslims. Forced conversion in against quranic teaching, killing innocent people is against quranic teaching. Again all these are there in Quran but i won’t qoute
5. Many people may visit this forum. What i would like to advise to those who are in search of truth is that merely by reading Quran you may not be able to unnderstand its true essence. Read Quran with the context in mind that is when a particular verse was revealed, what was the occasion, condition etc. Say for example, a knife can be both for good or bad. It depends on for what it was used.
150. Jenkins | June 18, 2008 at 2:12 pm
X-man some questions for you:
I want to be a muslim and would muslims accept some of these things:
- Can I make up my own prayer to allah in English. Will it be acceptable in Islam. Since Allah is god and the only god can I not pray to him in any way. Personally Arabic is not an important language for me to learn. Can I still be a muslim.
- Can I start praying facing in any direction. Why should almighty god insist on one single direction towards Arabia. After all direction is just a convention. Can I hold all people as equal and then pray in any direction I want.
- Zakir Naik is very superficial in his explanations about unity of mankind. How is unity acheived by all people praying in one direction. Unity is acheived through empathy between people. Will following blind mechanized rituals make people united. Have we not seen people in the Islamic countries fighting amongst themselves. Innumerable wars have been fought amongst themselves. Is this not proof that Islam has never worked well. The utopian idea that when all world becomes Islamic there will be peace is basically a fallacy born out of lack of understanding of human nature. This is very well exemplified by Zakir Naik and his philosophy.
151. arup k isaacs | June 19, 2008 at 12:35 pm
X Man has got it worng in most cases. He is the typical Muslim apologist. He says that both the Vedas and Quran teach that God is beyond time, dimensions and human comprehension – this is a flawed comparison. The Brahman of the Vedas is not God but the Godhead – the indefinable supreme source that underlies and that manifests everything (including God). The Vedas preach monism (advaita) that the human self is the same in essence as the supreme self as the former is simply a manifestation of the latter. Monsim states that cause cannot be different from effect and that one singularity – the Brahman – that is supra-cosmic, self-existent, self-sufficient and constituted of Pure Consciousness that as Force serves as both the material as well as efficient Cause of the Cosmos. The Quran’s Allah with its 99 attributes corresponds to the Vedic Ishwar (God) who is the manifested effect of the Brahman. Ishwar or Allah is simply the controller of the cosmos and rule it with its 99 0r 999 attributes. But, while the Vedic Ishwar with its 999 attributes is a manifestation of the Brahman, the Allah of the Quran is the supreme extra-cosmic being who created the cosmos out of nothing ! The Islamic version is ridiculous as something cannot be created out of nothing. So, the extra-cosmicism of the Quran preaches dualism that is a false teaching in contrast to the Vedas that preach non-dualism which is rational and scientifically perfect. The extra-cosmic God of monotheism is fiction and has been shunted out by the discoveries of science.
Next, if Muslims face the Kaaba as a show of unity, then why is the Kaaba Stone kissed, hugged, circumambulated and bowed to? Even Muhammed reportedly kissed, shed tears and hgged the lifeless stone ! If the Kaaba Stone is irrelevant, why did Muhammad retain it, kiss it, hug it etc after destroying the other idols in the Kaaba? As the Kaaba Stone is a lifeless piece of matter, why not kick it out of the Kaaba so that Muslim gets an icon free atmosphere to pray in at the Kaaba?
Further, if the Quran adopts war as a means of self-defence, why does it state that Jihad may be launched against “non-believers” if they block the spread of Islam and that the world must be fully won for Allah? Islam does not permit non-Muslims from evangelizing in Islamic lands but it advocates that Muslims ought to spread Islam everywhere and that if non-Muslims object to the spread of Islam then Jihad ought to waged against them.Besides, non-Muslims are not accorded equal rights under Islamic rule and are treated as inferior. How unjust and what arrogance ! etc etc etc
152. ajay | June 26, 2008 at 4:58 am
i have never read any solid article like this one, empowered with strong and logical conclusions, it touched my heart. i have read many of answers to zakir nayak but really i swear i have never read the gr8ness like this.
153. Neo | June 29, 2008 at 8:35 am
” The Brahman of the Vedas is not God but the Godhead – the indefinable supreme source that underlies and that manifests everything (including God). ”
Jugglery of words?
Why is that people cannot consider God as a speculation when they agree that there is proof for neither existence nor non existence of God. If God is beyond human comprehension, how did man come to believe in it at the first place?
The religious ,seems like are equipped to argue their case only among religious not rationally with a scientific community.
Is there any other methodology other than scientific methodology to know the truth about our world or existence or non existence of God?
Another trend I noticed in the posts here is that people reason. and finally bastardize that same reasoning when it comes to God.
154. x-man | July 3, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Well i don’t visit net frequently…..
sorry for late reply
First for Arup and then Mr. Jenkins
Arup i am not an aplogist, i don’t need to apologise for anything. If i appeared to be very polite and u r considering it as a sign of apologising then u have taken it wrongly.
“The Islamic version is ridiculous as something cannot be created out of nothing.”-
That’s why ALLAH is GREAT. Again i would like to mention that the physical laws can govern this universe but not the creator Himself. Otherwise there won’t be difference between man and God.
One of the consequence of this theory can be that the much sought after “unification theory in science” if discovered can allow the humans to predict future.Well i doubt such a theory can be discovered. If this example sounds complex readers can skip it.
“The extra-cosmic God of monotheism is fiction and has been shunted out by the discoveries of science. ”
Can you elborate??? Do you have proofs??? What i have read and heard that theory of probablity and others proves existence of GOD and only One GOD, and that to extra cosmic GOD so that even when humans arrive at “unification theory”, they don’t conquer GOD. Thus GOD has to be extra cosmic where in HE frames laws of natured and not get framed. ( For those who are not acquanted with unification th. : well einstein worked in end years towards it but was unable to achieve it. Also search for string theory on net which is currently being hoped to be the unification theory)
“Next, if Muslims face the Kaaba as a show of unity, then why is the Kaaba Stone kissed, hugged, circumambulated and bowed to?”
Completely wrong….What proof i have? My parents have done Haj this year only. First of all it is not a complusory ritual at all i.e kissing and touching black stone (hajr-e-aswad) or kaaba. One’s Haj is complete even without touching and kissing the black stone. There are other rituals compulsory but not this one. And if you bow done to the black stone(hajr-e-aswad)— completely forbidden, there are person’s specifically appointed there, if you bow to black stone the will warn you not to.
Once again I would like to tell, we Muslims do not bow down to kaaba, It is only for direction purpose. Again we circumambulate the kaaba to emphasise unity and to emphasise many other things eg: like similarity that since every
circle has one and only only one center so There is only one GOD. There are many more significance of this.
“why not kick it out of the Kaaba so that Muslim gets an icon free atmosphere to pray in at the Kaaba?”
Again mr.arup you will have to specify some point for direction and then you will ask me to kick it also out
“why does it state that Jihad may be launched against “non-believers” if they block the spread of Islam and that the world must be fully won for Allah?”
You don’t know the meaning of jihad, listen to Dr. Naik’s cds. We have been asked to do jihad means we have been asked to “preach in a manner most gracious” and that’s what we are doing. Yeah we have been also taught to do self defense and we have been also told when to give up all other’s means of jihad and use swords. You can’t treat a thief like a rigteous man. You have to deal with him like a thief and with righteous manner in a manner he deserves.
“Islam does not permit non-Muslims from evangelizing in Islamic lands” wrong infact we ask you preach us so that it is easier for us to preach you.
“Besides, non-Muslims are not accorded equal rights under Islamic rule and are treated as inferior.”
wrong infact Islam gives full freedom for a non-muslim to preach,pray,eastablish business,jobs. Infact Islam advocates that there should be separate assemblies for non-muslims where only non-muslims has right to vote so that non-muslims can also get elected to parliament and work for development of there community.
155. x-man | July 3, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Now Mr. Jenkins
You want to frame your own prayer in english: yes you can, infact i do it in my own language. ALLAH will certainly hear it. Yeah it won’t be counted as “Salaah or namaz”. The reason as follows:
1. If some one is a muslim he has confirmed from his heart and mind that the Glorious Quran is miracle of miracles. It is ultimate guidance to the human kind. We all know that if we repeat things continoulsy, it helps in internalising a concept, if we practise it helps more in internalising the concept. In Salaah we recite verses of the Holy Quran only, so in addition to getting blessings we are also guided. We are reminded to what to follow and what to tell others to follow. So reciting Quran is Slaah, if you frame your own prayer it will be prayer but not Salaah or namaz.
2.And Quran can be understood more if we know arabic but if you don’t know you can use translation in your own language.
3. When we recite Quran in arabic in Salaah we manintain its correctness and purity which cannot be achieved with translation which “may” contain some human bound error “or” deficienecies.
4. Learning Quran in arabic helps in understanding Islamic concept “better”, beacuse we will get acquainted with many Quranic terms.
5. Finally those who don’t know arabic have not been exempted from Salaah !!! They have been asked to recite the translation in their own language, but perform 5 times Salaah regularly…..
…compulsory
“Will following blind mechanized rituals make people united.”
Islam is only faith where nothing is blind. You have to have only good reasoning and understanding power to understand Quran ( you don’t need spirits to interpret the scriptures, but only brain… like some other faith). It has least rituals than any other religion.
“Have we not seen people in the Islamic countries fighting amongst themselves”
Well when someone goes away from Islam this will happen. If you follow the law of Quran peace will be established. And if humans have flaws selfishness,greed, unwillingness , why to blame the religion.
If Quran says don’t kill any innocent person and on kills is Quran responsible for it???
If Quran says don’t drink alcohol and one drinks, is Quran responsible for it???
If Quran says don’t gamble and one gambles is Quran responsible for it???
If Quran says don’t indulge in rape, adultury, fornication etc.. and one does is Quran responsible for it???
If Quran says don’t take bribe and one takes is Quran responsible for it???
If Quran says treat woman equally (not identically as some other school of thoughts advocate) to men and one does not follow it is Quran responsible for it???
If Quran says dont consume other person’s wealth when you don’t have a right over it and one neglects this call and consumes it then is Quran responsible for it???
The list will continue brother, I would like to tell you that Islam doesn’t take the responsibilty that whatever you do you will be forcefully or mysteriously directed to rigth path. What is does is that it provides you with a set of rules, if you follow those perfectly there won’t be any problem in your life. If you start creeping away from rules, flaws will also start creeping in your life.
And finally i would like clarify arup’s one doubt too
“…and that the world must be fully won for Allah?”
Yes this our belief. Only if the humans submit their will to The Creator of this universe, there would be peace. But to establish it we don’t wage a war, but we preach “in a manner most gracious”. War is only in self defense. If some one like to opt for any other path , it is his choice, but he will be held accountable for it.
156. x-man | July 3, 2008 at 8:20 pm
“Once again I would like to tell, we Muslims do not bow down to kaaba, It is only for direction purpose.”
I would like to write it in a more expressive manner
“Once again I would like to tell, we Muslims do not bow down to kaaba, but to One Almighty God. It is only for direction purpose. The Kaaba is not GOD. Many times during the years of Holy Prophet Muhammed, muslims have even stood on kaaba to call for prayers (aazan). Does a worshipper stands on his own diety??? Most certainly kaaba is God or symbol of God. Do you know that in the starting years for few months Muslims used to pray by facing towards holy city of jerusalam. Do you know??? Only after few months the order to change the direction came in Quran. —-Do you know that even now if a person is unable to find the directions ( say he is travelling somewhere, and he is unable to know the direction) and the time of Salaah or namaz comes, the muslim is not asked to skip that prayer !!!!. But in such cases he has been asked to pray in any direction, but while praying he should bear in mind that is bowing down to the Same Almighty GOD, The God who is The CREATOR,SUSTAINER,CHERISHER of this world. He is bowing to the MOST BENEFICIENT,the MOST MERCIFUL.—”
157. x-man | July 4, 2008 at 4:00 am
Correction “My parents have done Haj this year only.”
Sorry All
“My parents have done Haj last year only.”
158. Arup K Isaacs | July 6, 2008 at 2:22 pm
X Man:
You;ve not addressed any of the queries logically.
You argue in favor of the extra-cosmic God thinking that it’s fine to believe that some extra-cosmic God created the universe out of nothing. But, as matter cannot be created or destroyed, it means that matter is indestructible by the principle of conservation which then makes it impossible for matter to be created out of nothing.
So, as matter is indestructible how can it be created by an extra-cosmic God?
Thus, the universe, possessing an innate consciousness (as proven by J C Bose, EPR experiment etc) that serves as the intelligent principle guiding the cosmic manifestation and its functioning at every stage, is self-manifesting, self-sustaining and self-dissolving. Yes, the universe is self-existent and does not need an outside illogical, uncausal explanation for its existence. Cosmologists have now gathered data that indicates that the present universe is a manifestation of a previously dissolved universe and that these cosmic cycles are repititive and eternal.
Consequently, it stands to reason that as matter is indestructible, the very crude idea of matter being created out of nothing (which the Quran preaches) is illogical and pure fiction
Besides, if fools think that something can be created (out of nothing), then they’ll have to explain the entire mechanism of how this is possible – how did God create something out of nothing? By what process? Omnipotence? What exactly is meant by omnipotence and how does it work in producing something (matter) out of nothing? Give the detailed mechanism. If something can be created out of nothing, from where (and by what process did this extra-cosmic God) get the basic raw materials and forces to produce matter out of nothing? everything boils down to how? You just can’t assume that the fictional extra-cosmic God of the Quran can simply create out of nothing without giving a sound explanation as to how this is possible.
If this extra-cosmic God made the universe (out of nothing) how does it maintain a causal link with the universe as obviously to govern, influence or control the universe there has to a casual mechanism connecting the extra-cosmic God with the universe that He created (out of nothing). Once it is admitted (as it has to be logically acknowledged) that it’s only through a causal link that the extra-cosmic God can maintain a grip over His universe, then the silly monotheistic extra-cosmicism transforms itself into pantheism or monism that a singularity (God) manifested the graded universe out of Himself.
Further, if God made this universe (out of nothing), who made God? Who made that entity who made God? Who made that entity who made the entity who made God? This line of questioning can be streched infinitely without any conclusive answer.
Now, that it’s experimentally known that matter is indestructible, self-existent and eternal with it simply changing itself from energy to matter and vice-versa, thus the extra-cosmic God (who creates out of nothing) gets kicked out of the picture as a product of hallucination.
If the Kaaba is for directional purpose only, why don’t Muslims use a compass to locate the Kaaba and why retain a silly black stone as a symbol of direction and kiss, hug, and bow before it? Muhammad kissed, hugged, shed tears over the black Shiva Linga-like stone and had it installed in the Kaaba.
If God (unproven entity) is ominpresent (like a gas), then why need a particular direction to pray? Is this unproven extra-cosmic God centralized in the Kaaba? How did this extra-cosmic God gain access to the universe that stands apart from It in view of the fact that Muslims believe that He created the universe out of nothing? For an extra-cosmic creature to gain access to a separately existing universe there has to be a causal link for it to enter.
Muslims have stood on the dome or some part of the Kaaba Mosque to announce prayers but have they stood directly on the small, cylindrical, black stone that’s embedded in a side wall of the Kaaba Masjid? Pervez Musharrarf was recently shown (in ihram garb) bowing before the exposed black stone and during Hajj there’s a rush as the embedded stone is exposed from under the black cloth covering as pilgrims rush to kiss, touch and bow before it. I have first hand reports of this ritual.
Anyway, we now have, by the logic of the Quran, that reality is dual – an extra cosmic God and a universe that was created out of nothing and which stands apart from this God without a causal link between the two. But, can two singularities co-exist when it is a known fact that underlying diversity is unity ! I mean that there has to be a unifying factor linking two or more entities into one cohesive unit for them to exist.
If Islam grants equal rights to non-Muslims as say apologists, why does it speak so harshly against atheists, apostates, other faiths? why did the Kashmiri Muslims violently oppose the transfer of land to the Amarnath shrine trust? why are Muslims who convert to other faiths in Kashmir beheaded by Hizbul or LeT terrorists? Why are apostates persecuted or killed in Islamic nations? why does the Quran curse those who leave Islam for other faiths by thundering that they’ll roast in hell? Does free will have any significance in Islam or are to blindly swallow its ridiculous tales?
Why are religious minorities denied fundamental rights under Islamic law? Why can’t temples, churches, gurudwaras and fire temples be built beside the Kaaba Masjid in Mecca, in the rest of Saudia Arabia and the other nations in the Islamic world? Why can’t non-Muslims be made presidents, judges, prime ministers in Islamic republics.
There are several verses in the Quran when viewed from any angle that preach the subservience of non-Muslims and denial of basic rights to such dhimmis/kafirs.
If Jihad is not defense and offense as well, then tomorrow if say Nepal prevents rabid Muslim preachers from evangelizing and converting gullible section of its Hindu population to Islam, then the Quran commands its faithful to launch violent jihad aginst the “non-believers” who’ve blocked the spread of Islam. Ironically, at the same time, Islam does not permit non-Muslims from evangelizing and converting Muslims to other faiths. why does the Quran whimsically divide the world into Dar-ul-Harb and Dar-ul-Islam? Why does it condemn other theories on God but insist that its own hypothesis on God is correct?
Defending the indefensible has converted Muslims into a mentally diseased, violent, intolerant lot. No wonder natural justice is working against Muslims and Muslim interests everywhere.
159. Arup K Isaacs | July 6, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Correction: If Jihad is not defensive and offensive as well should read: if Islam is both defensive and offensive,
160. Arup K Isaacs | July 7, 2008 at 3:36 am
Why do Muslims need to face a silly, lifeless black stone embedded in the wall of the Kaaba Masjid?
Is the extra-cosmic God (who creates out of nothing) centralized in Mecca?
If this creature, called the extra-cosmic God, is omnipresent (like a gas), what need for any direction to pray?
Pray while facing any direction – up, down, east, west, north, south anywhere will do.
If at all a show of unity is needed, all facing one direction is a silly manner of demonstrating unity.
Isn’t praying to the extra-cosmic God Allah itself a show of unity among Muslims?
Anyway, this is a worthless point to discuss.
Now, the Quran preaches that heaven, hell are actual places.
Are these heavens and hells located withing the physical cosmos or are they located outside the cosmos (extra-cosmic) like Allah? Are these heavens/hells non-physical or physical? The Quran talks of how heaven is constitued of physical elements like rivers of milk, wine, honey, etc, how voluptuous nymphets (houris) and pearl skinned boys (ghilmans) are availabale for satisfying gross sensual desires, how gardens with fruit trees abound in heaven. In hell, it says, fire (created by burning wood? coal? gas?) exists and that sinners will be barbecued in these fires and will have boiling water poured down their backs forever.
All this is childish imagination, hallucinatory and contradictory.
Heaven and hell cannot be physical places as then they’ll be fully governed by the physical laws and in no physical place is it possible to have rivers of milk, honey, wine etc.
On the other hand, if heaven and hell are non-physical places, then what are they?
If heaven/hell are non-physical entities then how come they’re filled with physical substances like milk, fire, honey, wine, etc?
So, if heaven and hell are non-physical places, of what non-physical materials and forces are they made up of? How did they come into existence ?(And please don’t say that Glorious Allah created them – this brand of thinking is so ignorant and devious.) Tell me how, give mechansims, details.
How do these heavens and hells connect with the physical universe as underlying multiplicity there has to exist a unity ?
What is soul (rooh)? Of what subtle/non-physical materials and forces is it constituted of? How does soul connect with the physical cosmos and with mind, emotions, vital and body?
There are endless questions to nail the lies and fairy tales preached by Islam.
Finally, how come the extra-cosmic God Allah is anthropomorphic? Allah is endowed with human qualities – anger, love, mercy, revenge, justice, jealousy, forgiveness, etc though in a more magnified form.
A God that’s not only extra-cosmic, that no one has seen, who creates out of nothing and who possesses human qualities though on a magnified scale is said to be worthy of being worshipped ! Wow, great wisdom !
Anyway, as Muslims believe in such tales, let them.
Finally, I would like to know one thing about this extra-cosmic God: How does He look? Does He have form? Is He formless? If He’s spirit what exactly is meant by spirit? How come He possesses very human qualities like anger, revenge, forgiveness, etc?
I mean what conception or theory have Muslims formulated of a God who’s extra-cosmic, formless, who creates out of nothing and who has human qualities?
Well, the world remains unaffected by these shallow theories except for the fact that those who naivley accept these silly theories and tales (without having a single sensible answer and no supporting proofs) run amuck trying to convert everyone to their silly ideas and use violence, discrimination and oppression to further their beliefs and also have been commanded to persecute those Muslims who turn atheist, agnostic and who leave the faith !
This is terrorism in its most morbid manifestation and is the product of unbalanced minds !
161. Chinmay | July 9, 2008 at 5:37 pm
To say this article is good will be an understatement. It’s all most an eye-opener. Zakir Naik and his cohorts are creating havoc everywhere. They are dumb and they have followers. Worst, they are absolutely arrogant about their dumbness.
It’s sad that Sri Sri didn’t reply to him right then and there. I hope we Dharmic people stand against these morons are quite dangerous.
162. caleb | July 13, 2008 at 4:14 am
zakir naik completly befuddled by ali sina muslim apologetics have been completly debunked by sites such as http://www.faithfreedom.org,,anwering islam.org faith defendesr,abrahamic faiths show the archeological,manuscript and prophesical evidence for islam why does god create a tafseer to explain the quran surely god is not a moron to create a book which can only be explained by another book why the earlest manucript evidence of islam dates 200 years after islam origin why variations in modern day quran and samarkand index quran prophet quotin such nonsense such if fly fall into a glass of water dip it completly and drink the full stuff cumin seeds are a cure for abdominal pain why earliest mosque discoverd in syria palestine region qibla all point toward jerusalem and not mecca infact quran has so many contradictions and asinine statements than any other book ever published also why quran states 3 prayers for muslims but hadiths 5 surely muslims believe that tafseer is superior to quran
163. Kalyan Krishnan | July 14, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Now we have reached a stage in evolution where a drastic turn is in the offing. The end of Kaliyuga is nigh.
We are on the periphery of the 4th dimension. The seemingly vast and incomprehensible 5th dimension is just beyond our reach at the moment. But not so for long.
God is unknown and beyond all dimensions. What we are indulging in at the moment is a game of images. Images all around.
Everything except I AM are images.
We are all trying to explain our concept of the images around and in our mind. A useless tirade, indeed. Because everything would be swept away in a swish.
But Nothing can be condemned. Its all part of a Grand Plan to establish the next level of Consciousness on this Physical Plane. We are all playing the role assigned to us.
Seeing is enough.
164. Keval | July 17, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Many people are complaining that Sri Sri did not answer properly to Zakir. Can anyone in her or his mind go and argue with Zakir? Anyone with even average intelligence will realize that truth is not the matter of argueing and counter argueing. Truth is not something which canbe written in books, whether Hindu books or Muslim books. People in India have said from time immemorial to the modern day mystics like Raman Maharshi-or JK or UG has said all the books would have to be forgotten, everything you heard from other will have to go. You will have to approach naked and alone infront of God. THis is something whether one will get or one will never get. Does God send Prophets to preach religion, and can true religion be codified? You can codify behaviour, how you should shit, how you should urinate, how and what you should eat, how you should copulate, but is that religion? Would God bother with how often we are masturbating, or whether we are praying five times to him or not; whether we are fasting or not fasting?Zakir is dumb ass, but one would have to pursuade a great deal to even talk to him. Only when he stops reading and repeating like a taperecorder and starts thinking for himself would he begin to realize there is something wrong with him. BUt that is not possible for a person who is dead convinced that human is an intruement like VCR and GOD is it’s manufacturer and Koran is it’s manual.
Tulsidas wrote centuries before “Moorakh hriday na chet, jo guru milanhi Birachi sam”. A fool’s heart can not be awakened, even if Brahma himself becomes his guru.
BY the way, HAS ANY ONE SEEN THIS CLONE OF ZAKIR NAIK?
165. Kalyan Krishnan | July 18, 2008 at 1:55 am
It is all about dimensions. We need to reach the highest in us. Climb the ray of our inner light. Cross the dimensions. We are an Universe unto us. I AM all that there is. Everything that we see outside is contained within us. So when we condemn something we are actually condemning the a part of the blue print that we created before manifesting in all the worlds. So our first duty is to touch our Inner Self. All the answers are there. This particular Space-Tiime warp is not all. There are parallel universes. And we are in touch with each one of them every moment. This that we see is just a series of impressions created to bring that grossness. Really, its all Maya. We only have selected the series of experiences for this lifetime. when we condemn we need to realize this. And condemning is in no way wrong. But condemning arises out of ignorance. So it is best to seek our Inner Light. Move from Darkness to Light. From Ignorance to Knowledge. From Death to Immortality. But remember whatever you do you are not out of track from the blueprint. That’s the role assigned.
166. X-MAN | July 21, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Well “–aroop–” and several others in this forum appear to me like “hard-core” atheists…. who think they are arguing logically, but infact they are doing the opposite. They have paricularly 3 qualities
1. They emphasize science and rationalism
2. They don’t know even the basics of science and don’t use use logic
3. They twist what ever you say to them and turn blind eye to the reality.
Arup: “You argue in favor of the extra-cosmic God thinking that it’s fine to believe that some extra-cosmic God created the universe out of nothing. But, as matter cannot be created or destroyed, it means that matter is indestructible by the principle of conservation which then makes it impossible for matter to be created out of nothing.”
(@) Quran predicted big bang 1400 years ago : Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We clove them asunder (21:30).
(@)”EXTRA COSMIC” means beyond our cosmos ,i.e our current cosmos,our current universe. And if you have little knowledge of current scientific development then scientific theories are popping up which do suggest existing of multiple universe,or universe encompassing ours. Scientists believe that 11 dimensions exist with some providing ways into other universes. Creation of matter is not possible in our current universe with our physical laws, but who knows about something beyond. By the way Quran tells that there are more than one Universes.
(@) Quran never has said you can create matter from nothing in this universe. Neither it says that GOD cannot create matter. What it says that GOD has power over all things and HE has decided physical laws for HIS creations and they obey it constantly.
Arup: “By what process? Omnipotence? What exactly is meant by omnipotence and how does it work in producing something (matter) out of nothing? Give the detailed mechanism. If something can be created out of nothing, from where (and by what process did this extra-cosmic God) get the basic raw materials and forces to produce matter out of nothing? everything boils down to how? You just can’t assume that the fictional extra-cosmic God of the Quran can simply create out of nothing without giving a sound explanation as to how this is possible”
(@) “–arup k issacs—” assumes that the present science has discovered all physical phenomenons. That there is nothing left to be discovered. All scientific laws have achieved perfection. What is science????? It is human effort to understand laws of ALLAH, The laws which he decided and decreed for his creation to obey. All human efforts are error prone and have shortcomings. And as far as science is concerned it is still imperfect and lot many laws need to be discovered. Let’s examine some of the flaws and mistakes of our great scientists and promise by the science
1. Galileo assumed all physical laws are absolute, even Newton (on whom scientific community assumed all physical laws are absolute. Only Einstein after several hundred years found that physical laws are relative.
2. Scientists for centuries believed light has particles only, later they believed for several decades light is wave, and finally they found it is both particle and wave.
3. And people have great hopes with relativity, no doubt it is a great theory developed by a great mind. But even Einstein at one stage thought that our universe is —”Static”–!!!!!!!! And he added a new parameter to his original field equations—the cosmological constant. Later he declared the cosmological constant the biggest blunder of his life
But Quran predicted expanding of Universe some 1400 years ago
The Quran says in Surah Dhariat, Ch. No. 51, Verse No. 47 that, ‘It is We who have constructed with power and skill, the firmaments – and It is We who make the vastness, and the expanding universe’.
4. Scientists for decades believed that electromagnetic waves require “ether” medium to travel, finally they came to know that something like ether medium doesn’t exist at all. You want to completely about GOD through this science
5. Some people want to see GOD, you know they say science has developed so much and they want to know everything about GOD, what process he used etc. etc. What is soul….., they want everything to understand with their little human brain. You know The present scientific theories about cosmos predict existence of a “white hole”, but still scientists are unable to find one. From decades scientists are searching for “magnetic monopole” but they are unable to find one, but it is possible according to the accepted theories.
So are you expecting this Science, such an imperfect thing which many times takes “u-turn”, to give you “all the insights”, all knowledge about the ALMIGHTY, never even if you break your head. What it can give you is just a “small insight” to the Glory of ALLAH, the ALMIGHTY, the creator and cherisher of the Universes. It can help you to understand GOD, but only if you keep you mind open.
167. X-MAN | July 21, 2008 at 7:18 pm
As for your arguments that Muslims worship kaaba only, I have expalined in enough details earlier for those who can understand. By the way your arguments are illogical. What logic are you applying???, If Muslims really worship Kaaba, they would have invited others towards that only. Why they will ask others to worship someone else??????????? It is as if Christians are inviting others to Christianity but they say “we don’t ask you to believe in Jesus, that Jesus is begotten son of God, and that he was crucified etc. etc…you just become a Christian ”
But you will not find a single Muslim who say that I worship Kaaba or I worship the black stone. What logic are you applying…….!! What logic is this??????
168. X-MAN | July 21, 2008 at 7:24 pm
“You will have to approach naked and alone infront of God.”
you don’t have to, you are already………….. you can make fun of someone, abuse someone but you forget that GOD is seeing you, you don’t have show yourself to him…………
169. X-MAN | July 21, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Finally clearing aroop’s one doubt about the black stone
“Muslims have stood on the dome or some part of the Kaaba Mosque to announce prayers but have they stood directly on the small, cylindrical, black stone that’s embedded in a side wall of the Kaaba Masjid?”
Yes according to Islam, Prophet Abraham (pbuh) and Prophet Ismail(pbuh) stood on it while building Kaaba.
170. X-MAN | July 21, 2008 at 7:37 pm
========to caleb=======
“why earliest mosque discoverd in syria palestine region qibla all point toward jerusalem and not mecca infact quran has so many contradictions”
I have already written about this in my replies to aroop, read them. We muslim don’t worship kaaba gets established by this fact which you mentioned. Muslim’s first kibla was the Holy Mosque in Jerusalem, Only later in Quran came the order to change the direction to kaaba. Enquire first before just telling something. Anyways i guess it would be clear by now. Read Quran for more insight and if in doubt ask some muslim about it.
171. Arup K Isaacs | July 22, 2008 at 9:19 am
X-Man: What proof is there to show that Ibrahim existed? If he stood on the Kaaba stone, why did Muhammad kiss, hug and shed tears tears over it?
There are more than 11 dimensions but whatever may be their number the point is that all these unite in one singularity or source which is in perfevt conformity with the laws of causation, conservation and unity underlying diversity. As such there’s no scope for an extra-cosmic God to have created the cosmos out of nothing as something cannot come out of nothing. Extra cosmic God means a God who is apart from the cosmos and who creates it out of nothing – which is impossible.
The Quran says that God has power over all things but that’s only a silly book quote.
What is meant by ominpotence? Is it power to create out of nothing? But, as energy (matter) can neither be created nor destroyed it is thus impossible for energy (which goes on to manifest the material universe) to have been created out of nothing. and, if idiots still believe that creation out out of nothing is possible, then they’ll have to explain how this is possible giving detailed mechanisms as to how the extra-cosmic God manufactured the materials and forces out of nothing. If God made the universe out of nothing, who made God?
Now, the Quran preaches that heaven and hell are actual places.
Are these heavens and hells located withing the physical cosmos or are they located outside the cosmos (extra-cosmic) like Allah? Are these heavens/hells non-physical or physical? The Quran talks of how heaven is constitued of physical elements like rivers of milk, wine, honey, etc, how voluptuous nymphets (houris) and pearl skinned boys (ghilmans) are availabale for satisfying gross sensual desires, how gardens with fruit trees abound in heaven. In hell, it says, fire (created by burning wood? coal? gas?) exists and that sinners will be barbecued in these fires and will have boiling water poured down their backs forever.
All this is childish imagination, hallucinatory and contradictory.
Heaven and hell cannot be physical places as then they’ll be fully governed by the physical laws and in no physical place is it possible to have rivers of milk, honey, wine etc.
On the other hand, if heaven and hell are non-physical places, then what are they?
If heaven/hell are non-physical entities then how come they’re filled with physical substances like milk, fire, honey, wine, etc?
So, if heaven and hell are non-physical places, of what non-physical materials and forces are they made up of? How did they come into existence ?(And please don’t say that Glorious Allah created them – this brand of thinking is so ignorant and devious.) Tell me how, give mechansims, details.
How do these heavens and hells connect with the physical universe as underlying multiplicity there has to exist a unity ?
What is soul (rooh)? Of what subtle/non-physical materials and forces is it constituted of? How does soul connect with the physical cosmos and with mind, emotions, vital and body?
There are endless questions to nail the lies and fairy tales preached by Islam.
Finally, how come the extra-cosmic God Allah is anthropomorphic? Allah is endowed with human qualities – anger, love, mercy, revenge, justice, jealousy, forgiveness, etc though in a more magnified form.
A God that’s not only extra-cosmic, that no one has seen, who creates out of nothing and who possesses human qualities though on a magnified scale is said to be worthy of being worshipped ! Wow, great wisdom !
Anyway, as Muslims believe in such tales, let them.
Finally, I would like to know one thing about this extra-cosmic God: How does He look? Does He have form? Is He formless? If He’s spirit what exactly is meant by spirit? How come He possesses very human qualities like anger, revenge, forgiveness, etc?
I mean what conception or theory have Muslims formulated of a God who’s extra-cosmic, formless, who creates out of nothing and who has human qualities?
Well, the world remains unaffected by these shallow theories except for the fact that those who naivley accept these silly theories and tales (without having a single sensible answer and no supporting proofs) run amuck trying to convert everyone to their silly ideas and use violence, discrimination and oppression to further their beliefs and also have been commanded to persecute those Muslims who turn atheist, agnostic and who leave the faith !
This is terrorism in its most morbid manifestation and is the product of unbalanced minds !
172. Arup K Isaacs | July 22, 2008 at 9:24 am
One more point, the Vedas, Greek books, Chinese literature and other ancient commentaries contain far more science than what little repititve stuff the Quran contains. Expanding universe, Big bang, Multiple dimensions, relativity, speed of light, plastic surgery, aeranautics, solar techmology and much more are all referred sometimes in amzaing details in all these books, especially the old Sanskrit books.
173. Kalyan Krishnan | July 23, 2008 at 2:56 am
I wonder if God is enjoying all these from up above.
What we must yet again realize is that our goal on this physical dimension is to know and get in touch with the Inner Light. It is beyond mere imagination or any type of hallucination. Thought cannot comprehend. Logic will ever fail to get anywhere near it. Words, words and mere words will never describe it.
That is My Self. In My Self I AM free.
Rituals are important in so far as they are performed with both interiorized consciousness and devotion. Absent-minded mumbling of words and vague gestures don’t lead you to Light. A wholehearted immersing of oneself in the feeling as well as the ritual one performs can lead to the absorption of the Divine Inspiration unto one’s self. Supreme surrender and self offering is what is required.
The entire spiritual path, no matter what the religious inclining, consists of offering up one’s self, the ego, to the Supreme and receiving His Grace in return.
174. Kalyan Krishnan | July 23, 2008 at 2:57 am
I wonder if God is enjoying all these from up above.
What we must yet again realize is that our goal on this physical dimension is to know and get in touch with the Inner Light. It is beyond mere imagination or any type of hallucination. Thought cannot comprehend. Logic will ever fail to get anywhere near it. Words, words and mere words will never describe it.
That is My Self. In My Self I AM free.
Rituals are important in so far as they are performed with both interiorized consciousness and devotion. Absent-minded mumbling of words and vague gestures don’t lead you to Light. A wholehearted immersing of oneself in the feeling as well as the ritual one performs can lead to the absorption of the Divine Inspiration unto one’s self. Supreme surrender and self offering is what is required.
The entire spiritual path, no matter what the religious inclination, consists of offering up one’s self, the ego, to the Supreme and receiving His Grace in return.
175. Nidhi Shah | July 23, 2008 at 3:54 am
X-Man comes across as a big ignorant, fanatic who though defeated in argument by other writers is still trying to save the Quran from being publicly humiliated and acknowledged as just another man-made book containing: a) Sketchy second hand information that was known to man long before the Quran could be composed, b) Fictional tales of creation out of nothing, heaven with fruit gardens and burning hells with physical fires, c) Hatred for anyone who questions its veracity, d) Brutal violence against those who it condemns, e) Subjugation of non-Muslims, apostates, atheists, agnostics, etc.
The problem with these religious books is that they are all man made or are products of overactive human imagination. But, their protagonists claim that these books are of “divine” origin and then they invent all sorts of fairy tales of how invisible angels “revealed” so and so information to so and so prophet and that it is “God’s final word” and so on.
Can any one tell me what an angel looks like? Who has seen an angel? What are these “invisible” angels like? Are they made of light or fire, silk or honey? But, ha ha, light, fire and honey (as pointed above in messages posted on this site) are gross physical substances but yet it is assumed that angels being divine are made of non-physical beings. Thus, an angel made of light will be visible to everyone and not just to a particular person; if people say that angels are made of “heavenly light” they have to tell us what is heavenly light? Or as put by one writer above, of what invisible non-physical materials and forces are these angels made up of? How these angels gain entry into the universe from their out-of- the universe heaven? There are so many unanswered and unanswerable questions that reveal the utter nonsense of the claims of the Quran that an invisible angel (Gabriel) appeared to Muhammad and passed on “divine” messages to him. These so-called divine messages, upon scrutiny, turn out to be nothing more than ordinary moral teachings that were known to humans since thousands of years, loads of fiction, shocking contradictions, hate, violence, threats, discrimination and hallucinatory information.
Has X-man not heard of Grand Unified Force Theories that seek to explain every physical entity in 10 or more dimensions as being aspects of a single vibration or grand unified force?
Thus, the universe has not been made out of nothing by some non-existent external God. And, as pointed above by other writers, matter (or the energy from which matter is manifested) is eternal (it cannot be created, cannot be destroyed). This proves the claim that creation out of nothing is not possible.
Not a single scientist will ever say that “creation out of nothing” is possible. They may say that the higher laws of matter being fine or multi-dimensional are difficult to understand but they always say that a single source (Grand Unified Force) is responsible for projecting the universe into from and that after many billions of years it gets dissolved into fine energy and that the fine energy once again enters the original Grand Unified State or a state of dynamic equilibrium and after a period of rest will be projected out once more to form another universe. This cyclical process is eternal.
Einstein laughed at the idea of God who creates out of nothing, who sits up there or somewhere outside the universe like a big judge and who dispenses goodies and punishment and who has prepared a huge bonfire to roast sinners after death. These are stupid hallucinatory stories found in sub-intellectual books like Quran, Bible, Puranas, etc. No serious scientist entertains such bull shit.
176. Nidhi Shah | July 23, 2008 at 4:03 am
X-Man comes across as a big ignorant, fanatic who though defeated in argument by other writers is still trying to save the Quran from being publicly humiliated and acknowledged as just another man-made book containing: a) Sketchy second hand information that was known to man long before the Quran could be composed, b) Fictional tales of creation out of nothing, heaven with fruit gardens and burning hells with physical fires, c) Hatred for anyone who questions its veracity, d) Brutal violence against those who it condemns, e) Subjugation of non-Muslims, apostates, atheists, agnostics, etc.
The problem with these religious books is that they are all man made or are products of overactive human imagination. But, their protagonists claim that these books are of “divine” origin and then they invent all sorts of fairy tales of how invisible angels “revealed” so and so information to so and so prophet and that it is “God’s final word” and so on.
Can any one tell me what an angel looks like? Who has seen an angel? What are these “invisible” angels like? Are they made of light or fire, silk or honey? But, ha ha, light, fire and honey (as pointed above in messages posted on this site) are gross physical substances but yet it is assumed that angels being divine are made of non-physical beings. Thus, an angel made of light will be visible to everyone and not just to a particular person; if people say that angels are made of “heavenly light” they have to tell us what is heavenly light? Or as put by one writer above, of what invisible non-physical materials and forces are these angels made up of? How these angels gain entry into the universe from their out-of- the universe heaven? There are so many unanswered and unanswerable questions that reveal the utter nonsense of the claims of the Quran that an invisible angel (Gabriel) appeared to Muhammad and passed on “divine” messages to him. These so-called divine messages, upon scrutiny, turn out to be nothing more than ordinary moral teachings that were known to humans since thousands of years, loads of fiction, shocking contradictions, hate, violence, threats, discrimination and hallucinatory information.
Has X-man not heard of Grand Unified Force Theories that seek to explain every physical entity in 10 or more dimensions as being aspects of a single vibration or grand unified force?
Thus, the universe has not been made out of nothing by some non-existent external God. And, as pointed above by other writers, matter (or the energy from which matter is manifested) is eternal (it cannot be created, cannot be destroyed). This proves the claim that creation out of nothing is not possible.
Not a single scientist will ever say that “creation out of nothing” is possible. They may say that the higher laws of matter being fine or multi-dimensional are difficult to understand but they always say that a single source (Grand Unified Force) is responsible for projecting the universe into from and that after many billions of years it gets dissolved into fine energy and that the fine energy once again enters the original Grand Unified State or a state of dynamic equilibrium and after a period of rest will be projected out once more to form another universe. This cyclical process is eternal.
Einstein laughed at the idea of God who creates out of nothing, who sits up there or somewhere outside the universe like a big judge and who dispenses goodies and punishment and who has prepared a huge bonfire to roast sinners after death. These are stupid hallucinatory stories found in sub-intellectual books like Quran, Bible, Puranas, etc. No serious scientist entertains such bull shit.
177. Kalyan Krishnan | July 23, 2008 at 3:01 pm
In the chapter 43 “Resurrection of Sri Yukteswar” in the book “The Autobiography of a Yogi” by Paramhansa Yogananda, is described in details an Astral World or Hiranyaloka.
No doubt this is all Maya – but only for those who comprehend it. For those who don’t this world is real. Both have their assigned roles on this physical dimension.
I have transmigrated with a reduced consciousness onto this world – or rather projected myself. This is like a computer programmed game but with a difference – the Master Programmer has given freedom to the elements or agents in the program to chart out the destiny of this game. And that too in varying degrees. These elements in turn have created sub-programmed games within the game. These elements have absolute freedom with these sub games. Now some of the elements project themselves onto the game field. They now work out the basics of the game with or without knowing the actual goal. They keep withdrawing and re-entering the programme at regular intervals. The Master Programmer in supposedly out of the picture at this juncture. But he can guide and chip in whenever the game moves out of track according to the laws of Entropy.
We in this physical dimension are those reduced consciousness elements moving towards the goal albeit ignorantly.
So you see there is a still greater test going on in the Higher Dimensions. Whatever has lived beyond its time will be removed in due course. What those are we can’t tell. For that we need to go back to our source!
178. sulochanosho | July 24, 2008 at 5:34 am
A very upright punch of words there from Nidhi Shah:
It may be ok to put this way too: Why serious scientists, even a mere ’simple sense’ of us can never just entertain such bull shit.
May be all our arguments are of shit value and nobody knows what is what as far as the ‘functioning’ of this existence is focused. We all are adding our bit of ’shits’ there. Our science might have explored or scratched till today only a tiny fraction of the things there. But it’s not a small act either.
The sad or good paradox is that we are more interested in knowing and believing, less in LIVING OUR LIFE.
179. Kalyan Krishnan | July 24, 2008 at 8:02 am
What is a scientist? What is a ’serious’ scientist?
What is shit?
Why do we close ourselves to inquiries of the beyond?
Arguments are all narrow focused. Let us open our minds to the vast lying before us. Each one of us represent at least one unique quality of the divine. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here. We need each other to be the whole.
And finally, what is wrong in knowing and believing? We shouldn’t be a stumbling block in the path of those do. Criticize – but judge your sense behind the criticism. Each one of us have a role to play. Let’s just take care that we don’t cross the limits into fanaticism.
180. Kalyan Krishnan | July 25, 2008 at 10:13 am
What is God? No one can describe. Any description is foolhardy. Trying to negate any description is also foolhardy.
My personal experience is God to me. And it is better not to let anyone know. However, we are all doing the right thing. We are here and doing things exactly the way the original blueprint wants us to.
There is no mistake worth not making. We are here to make mistakes. This physical dimension is merely an experimental setup. We are much more than our physical, mental or psychological existence. We exist across dimensions.
Each one of us has a certain hardware and software configuration. Several updates according to needs are available and downloaded at various times. This is because each one of us has a different and specific role to play. They all add up to help and update the whole.
No doubt – there is that One Source. Is that God?
God is All. All is God. And God is Beyond.
181. Arup K Isaacs | July 27, 2008 at 12:11 pm
The world has seen many criminal and terrorist groups in the past with several new ones cropping up with the explicit motive of fighting for a variety of causes, some legitimate, others illegal.
Aside from the nearly defunct Sikh separatists, what is interesting is that Islamic terror groups are perhaps the only ones these days who are aggressively using religion as a plank (or weapon) to achieve their ends that range from secessionism, establishment of a pan-Islamic super state and socio-cultural reform along parochial lines or the opposition of sublime ideals like secularism, democracy, equality of the genders, freedom of speech and critical thinking among others.
Obviously, the mad urge to strait jacket the world to one pattern of beliefs is what goads these fanatics but what they forget is that nature is programmed to function on the basis of unity in variety which none has the power to change.
Another interesting phenomenon that we witness with the rise of the LeT, Huji, Indian Mujhahideen and others is periodic bomb blasts being employed by them to terrorize society with the routine e-mail messages accompanied by hate spewed against other communities apart from the open challenges thrown to the authorities to prevent the impending calamity.
Manliness demands that the conspirators, if they wish to take on the “infidels”, ought to have the courage to openly confront their opponents. What kind of “challenge” is it to secretly plant bombs in unspecified locations killing civilians? Do they have the power, guts or resources to engage their foes in open battle?
Even in Kashmir , the easy way adopted by the militants is to mingle with the local people to avoid detection when on the contrary they ought to have set up separate strongholds to bravely confront the army. In open combat, it’s obvious they don’t stand a chance and will be routed in a matter of hours. The word “mujhahideen” is a tall word that conjures up graphic images of fearless warriors who do not use subterfuge and who are brave enough to challenge the enemy openly instead of hiding among women and children and then surreptitiously attacking their opponents from behind, hurling grenades from house tops or from behind boulders and then scampering away or triggering off mines from the safety of their lairs. A battle cannot be won and that too against a formidable adversary in this dastardly manner.
The time has come for civilized people to throw a challenge to the Islamic terror groups to prove the worth of their bizarre beliefs on the grounds of hard proofs and sound reasons. They should be asked why they are fighting “God’s” war. Should not their version of “God” be doing all the dirty work? Cannot not their “God” empower them with “supernatural” qualities so that they easily vanquish their militarily, morally and technologically superior foes? It was expected that this extra-cosmic “God” would have by now shown His omnipotent “signs”, long since flown down armies of “celestial” beings like “angels”, “aabils” and “djinns” to outright defeat His enemies, to support the “mujhahideen” in their ideological duel with the “kafirs” and to convey to the poor “non-believers” who’re (as narrated by the scriptures and blindly believed by the mujhahideen) headed for the barbecue pits of “hell” in the “afterlife”. As none of these events have transpired or are likely to occur, it is obvious that diseased minds, by drawing inspiration from crude belief systems, have gone berserk or worse still are possessed by diabolism leading them to harm the natural pluralistic scheme in the world but little do they realize that are walking on a such a wobbly path that it is only a matter of time that it caves in.
182. Arup K Isaacs | July 27, 2008 at 12:25 pm
The world has seen many criminal and terrorist groups in the past with several new ones cropping up with the explicit motive of fighting for a variety of causes, some legitimate, others illegal.
Aside from the nearly defunct Sikh separatists, what is interesting is that Islamic terror groups are perhaps the only ones these days who are aggressively using religion as a plank (or weapon) to achieve their ends that range from secessionism, establishment of a pan-Islamic super state and socio-cultural reform along parochial lines or the opposition of sublime ideals like secularism, democracy, equality of the genders, freedom of speech and critical thinking among others.
Obviously, the mad urge to strait jacket the world to one pattern of beliefs is what goads these fanatics but what they forget is that nature is programmed to function on the basis of unity in variety which none has the power to change.
Another interesting phenomenon that we witness with the rise of the LeT, Huji, Indian Mujhahideen and others is periodic bomb blasts being employed by them to terrorize society with the routine e-mail messages accompanied by hate spewed against other communities apart from the open challenges thrown to the authorities to prevent the impending calamity.
Manliness demands that the conspirators, if they wish to take on the “infidels”, ought to have the courage to openly confront their opponents. What kind of “challenge” is it to secretly plant bombs in unspecified locations killing civilians? Do they have the power, guts or resources to engage their foes in open battle?
Even in Kashmir , the easy way adopted by the militants is to mingle with the local people to avoid detection when on the contrary they ought to have set up separate strongholds to bravely confront the army. In open combat, it’s obvious they don’t stand a chance and will be routed in a matter of hours. The word “mujhahideen” is a tall word that conjures up graphic images of fearless warriors who do not use subterfuge and who are brave enough to challenge the enemy openly instead of hiding among women and children and then surreptitiously attacking their opponents from behind, hurling grenades from house tops or from behind boulders and then scampering away or triggering off mines from the safety of their lairs. A battle cannot be won and that too against a formidable adversary in this dastardly manner.
The time has come for civilized people to throw a challenge to the Islamic terror groups to prove the worth of their bizarre beliefs on the grounds of hard proofs and sound reasons. They should be asked why they are fighting “God’s” war. Should not their version of “God” be doing all the dirty work? Cannot not their “God” empower them with “supernatural” qualities so that they easily vanquish their militarily, morally and technologically superior foes? It was expected that this extra-cosmic “God” would have by now shown His omnipotent “signs”, long since flown down armies of “celestial” beings like “angels”, “aabils” and “djinns” to outright defeat His enemies, supported the “mujhahideen” in their ideological duel with the “kafirs” and to convey to the “infidels” the extent of their “sins” and warned them that they’re (as narrated by the scriptures and blindly believed by the mujhahideen) headed for the barbecue pits of “hell” in the “afterlife”. As none of these events have transpired or are likely to occur, it is obvious that diseased minds, by drawing inspiration from crude belief systems, have gone berserk or worse still are possessed by diabolism leading them to harm the natural pluralistic scheme in the world but little do they realize that are walking on a such a wobbly path that it is only a matter of time that it caves in
183. Arup K Isaacs | July 27, 2008 at 12:27 pm
CORRECTED MESSAGE : The world has seen many criminal and terrorist groups in the past with several new ones cropping up with the explicit motive of fighting for a variety of causes, some legitimate, others illegal.
Aside from the nearly defunct Sikh separatists, what is interesting is that Islamic terror groups are perhaps the only ones these days who are aggressively using religion as a plank (or weapon) to achieve their ends that range from secessionism, establishment of a pan-Islamic super state and socio-cultural reform along parochial lines or the opposition of sublime ideals like secularism, democracy, equality of the genders, freedom of speech and critical thinking among others.
Obviously, the mad urge to strait jacket the world to one pattern of beliefs is what goads these fanatics but what they forget is that nature is programmed to function on the basis of unity in variety which none has the power to change.
Another interesting phenomenon that we witness with the rise of the LeT, Huji, Indian Mujhahideen and others is periodic bomb blasts being employed by them to terrorize society with the routine e-mail messages accompanied by hate spewed against other communities apart from the open challenges thrown to the authorities to prevent the impending calamity.
Manliness demands that the conspirators, if they wish to take on the “infidels”, ought to have the courage to openly confront their opponents. What kind of “challenge” is it to secretly plant bombs in unspecified locations killing civilians? Do they have the power, guts or resources to engage their foes in open battle?
Even in Kashmir , the easy way adopted by the militants is to mingle with the local people to avoid detection when on the contrary they ought to have set up separate strongholds to bravely confront the army. In open combat, it’s obvious they don’t stand a chance and will be routed in a matter of hours. The word “mujhahideen” is a tall word that conjures up graphic images of fearless warriors who do not use subterfuge and who are brave enough to challenge the enemy openly instead of hiding among women and children and then surreptitiously attacking their opponents from behind, hurling grenades from house tops or from behind boulders and then scampering away or triggering off mines from the safety of their lairs. A battle cannot be won and that too against a formidable adversary in this dastardly manner.
The time has come for civilized people to throw a challenge to the Islamic terror groups to prove the worth of their bizarre beliefs on the grounds of hard proofs and sound reasons. They should be asked why they are fighting “God’s” war. Should not their version of “God” be doing all the dirty work? Cannot not their “God” empower them with “supernatural” qualities so that they easily vanquish their militarily, morally and technologically superior foes? It was expected that this extra-cosmic “God” would have by now shown His omnipotent “signs”, long since flown down armies of “celestial” beings like “angels”, “aabils” and “djinns” to outright defeat His enemies, supported the “mujhahideen” in their ideological duel with the “kafirs” and to convey to the “infidels” the extent of their “sins” and warned them that they’re (as narrated by the scriptures and blindly believed by the mujhahideen) headed for the barbecue pits of “hell” in the “afterlife”. As none of these events have transpired or are likely to occur, it is obvious that diseased minds, by drawing inspiration from crude belief systems, have gone berserk or worse still are possessed by diabolism leading them to harm the natural pluralistic scheme in the world but little do they realize that are walking on a such a wobbly path that it is only a matter of time that it caves in
184. Kalyan Krishnan | July 27, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Our present status of being (collective humanity and the evolution of consciousness) is largely burdened by an ignorant mentality. But transformation is surely ON. All the happenings around is nothing but the last gasp of the fast receding foundation of ignorance.
The Inner Urge towards spirituality is taking deep roots in Man. This Inner Driving will lead man to establish Heaven on Earth itself. It is just that the forms taken by this aspiration by collective humanity has been obscure.
However, the emergence of a Higher World Order is now gathering speed. The dark forces will be weeded out and the full bloom of the true spiritual unfolding on Earth will take place sooner than expected.
No doubt we have reached a decisive stage as far as the evolution of the next species on Earth is concerned.
185. Arup K Isaacs | July 28, 2008 at 3:13 am
Kalyan Krishnan:
You are parroting Sri Aurobindo word for word – that the earth plane is preparing to manifest the next plane of consciousness (the supramental consciousness) so that matter evolves with the residual humanity emerging into a new consciousness, a consciousness of higher harmony, truth, power, peace, light.
While all this may be right, the proofs have yet to emerge. The working of the Spiritual Force is said to be presently subliminal and can be accessed only by the Yogis.
I doubt if you’ve had a single Yogic experience. Have you ever experienced the Descent of the Higher Force (as narrated by Sri Aurobindo)? Have you ever ascended into the subtler planes of consciousness? Have you had a single out of body experience? Have you ever entered into trance and had inner expereinces? What are your practical realizations? To talk is very easy but to experience and realize is extremely hard.
Obviously, you are just talking about the finer planes of consciousness, evolution of consciousness, etc, after reading books? You are a mere theoretician, not a Yogi; you’re simply repeating in parrot fashion what you’ve read so obviously it makes little sense or impact.
But, whenever the earth plane, as promised by Sri Aurobindo, is ready for the transformation, the unregenerate/evil/corrupted sections of humanity will become extinct and as he says the residual portion of fit humanity will evolve with the manifested higher consciousness in matter and live a life of glory in the Golden Age.
Well. let’s see when all this occurs if at all….
186. Kalyan Krishnan | July 28, 2008 at 4:17 pm
All this while I was thinking I was the only person on Earth who had read Sri Aurobindo. But you have smashed that notion of mine to smithereens. Yes, I am a theoretician and not a yogi (by any standards). I live in a make believe world and love to philosophize using words. People around me hold me in awe for my “profound” knowledge. Your reply has smacked me hard.
But reality is actually a terror for me. I am constantly plagued by doubts and a sense of acute insecurity. What I see around scares me no ends.
I am yet to discover a meaning for my own life. Why am I here on Earth? Its been a hopeless meandering all along. But I don’t need a solution from my external world.
I now understand that this insecurity is a reality. Maybe I will never discover the answer from my inner reality and will quietly pass away from this earthly plane. Till then…
187. suresh | July 29, 2008 at 10:24 am
What could be more ludicrous
Or more boring
Than a discussion about the Truth?
The same bullshit keeps being repeated
Over and over and over
Generation after generation
Century upon century.
The rabbis keep crowing about
Their chosen status.
The mullahs keep sending
Their faithful off to holy slaughter.
The priests and nuns keep stewing
in their own sexual juices.
The atheists keep worshiping
Their god of reason.
All have their texts of support
All have their rationale.
Ram Tzu knows this…
No one
In the whole history of the argument
Has ever been right.
- Ram Tzu
188. suresh | July 29, 2008 at 10:29 am
My personal Journey
The most easy and most difficult thing is to know WHO AM I.
NO method . NO formula . No cult. No organized religion.
Let’s meditate and find out. Let me do it first ( doing is also a wrong word)
All other questions WILL disappear.
But I’m not telling this from my own experience. I’m just refering to the great sayings of Ramana Maharshi. Personally I have a long way to go . Till then above sentences are just beliefs. All I can say is that great mystics like Ramana cannot be wrong . But as Buddha said until and unless You experience it yourself first hand , its no use. So friends wish me a good wish that will take me one step closer to that unknown journey .
Take care
Suresh
189. sulochanosho | July 29, 2008 at 12:19 pm
When silence speaks, our words are a mere violence.
190. Kalyan Krishnan | July 30, 2008 at 3:12 am
Please allow me to inflict some violence on you all hapless readers:
The true soul is secret in us, not subliminal. Ignorance, the thick veil of ignorance, separates our waking consciousness from this ever blazing Godhead. This flame is the Witness and the Controller, the hidden guide.
But is ignorance evil? What is evil? They are synonyms. Should we abhor evil? The matrix of Maya is complex. Seeing from outside will always and invariably lead us to delusion.
So am I writing all these from an inner guidance? What does it matter? I am living in delusion; groping in the dark. So am I trying to lead anybody? I am just groping in the dark; clinging on to my delusion in a hope that may turn out to be false. What else can I do? Until the Light shows up to me…
Where do I search? My mind won’t allow me to be still either. The very proof of my utter ignorance lies in this activity that I am indulging right at this moment. The very proof of your utter ignorance lies in the activity that you are indulging in at this moment. We are all deluding ourselves at every moment. There is nothing else we can do.
Therefore, philosophizing is the panacea; the only delusive way out. Whether you cry or you laugh or jeer or sneer at my words; rest assured you are all influenced. Even if you try to be seemingly indifferent! That very self show of indifference is proof of this fact.
Only those who are not reading this; only they remain unscathed!
Oh, you all foolish people! Our foolishness is the only ticket to paradise, when the train arrives!
191. sulochanosho | July 30, 2008 at 2:31 pm
May be we are on a fools paradise. Please, I have nothing to offend anybofy’s view here. I respect you and your views.
Anyway, on a sideline you may please have a peep at this piece
on the AsianWidow.com
192. sulochanosho | July 30, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Here is the full story (of the above piece) appeared in
the Indian Express, on 30th July 2008 (online edition)
193. Kalyan Krishnan | July 30, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Personally: I care not for news of any kind. It has stimulation value and thats it. Gullible people would be fooled anyway. This is kaliyuga. There will be many false vasudevas. I was born and bought up in a place where people used to revere anyone smeared with ash and vermilion.
Apart from all the above: We aren’t actually in a fool’s paradise. We are all equally caught in a Maya Matrix. And we haven’t the slightest idea of what needs to be done. We are conditioned to do what we are doing. Thats the setup on this physical plane. We are aware of only a small minuscule part of the entire movement. So nothing is out of place. Everything is planned and part of the blueprint.
This entire Space-Time warp is contained in the Moment. The Time stretch is there only in our conditioned imagination. There is no solution but to live through it all. We are doing exactly what is required of us!
194. suresh | July 31, 2008 at 5:52 am
Dear Krishnan , please see my inline replies
K: Please allow me to inflict some violence on you all hapless readers:
Suresh : Go ahead man , be a man
Suresh : We may or may not be hapless . Just remember to mind (y)our own business. Meaning, minding our own mind.
K: The true soul is secret in us, not subliminal. Ignorance, the thick veil of ignorance, separates our waking consciousness from this ever blazing Godhead. This flame is the Witness and the Controller, the hidden guide.
Suresh : May be may be not . Let’s stop parroting from books.
K: But is ignorance evil? What is evil? They are synonyms. Should we abhor evil?
Suresh : Noting is evil and nothing divine. The ultimate reality doesn’t care.
K: The matrix of Maya is complex. Seeing from outside will always and invariably lead us to delusion.
Suresh : I really loved your term Matrix of Maya . That’s the power of mind. Mind after all is not BAD , it’s a great tool , but one must use it wisely , otherwise it will consume us. What’s outside and what’s inside. Its the same.
K: So am I writing all these from an inner guidance? What does it matter? I am living in delusion; groping in the dark. So am I trying to lead anybody? I am just groping in the dark; clinging on to my delusion in a hope that may turn out to be false. What else can I do? Until the Light shows up to me…
Suresh : Thanks for your bold confession. I’m no different.
K: Where do I search? My mind won’t allow me to be still either. The very proof of my utter ignorance lies in this activity that I am indulging right at this moment.
Suresh : I disagree. May be we have havn’t found the way to still our mind. Or may be we dont’ want to face ourselves . Or we don’t really practice the right kind of meditation.First and foremost we should get rid of desire to set ourselves free. That itself is the bondage , born out of thought -mind ( the real ignorance). Yes, we are all indulging and its another form of entertainment. What’s wrong with that.As long as we are AWARE. That’s it.
K: The very proof of your utter ignorance lies in the activity that you are indulging in at this moment. We are all deluding ourselves at every moment. There is nothing else we can do.
Suresh – I agree . As long as we are AWARE that we are deluding that should be enough.
K: Therefore, philosophizing is the panacea; the only delusive way out. Whether you cry or you laugh or jeer or sneer at my words; rest assured you are all influenced. Even if you try to be seemingly indifferent! That very self show of indifference is proof of this fact.
Suresh : I totally disagree. Its saying something like , I can’t still my mind so I resorted to drinking , so somehow one day a train will arrive and will get rid of my miseries.
K: Only those who are not reading this; only they remain unscathed!
Suresh : What a foolish statement.
K: Oh, you all foolish people! Our foolishness is the only ticket to paradise, when the train arrives!
Suresh : So let’s learn to be totally foolish may be there is a way out. And its lot more fun to be foolish that just to philosophize . Let all of us Join the land foolish.
195. suresh | July 31, 2008 at 5:57 am
Note : there is a typo in my last sentence . ‘that’ should be read as ‘than’
Suresh : So let’s learn to be totally foolish may be there is a way out. And its lot more fun to be foolish than just to philosophize . Let all of us Join the land foolish.
196. suresh | July 31, 2008 at 6:40 am
Dear All
May be this is useful.
Sri Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950), arguably, “the greatest spiritual realization of this or any time.”
Ramana taught…
“I Am That I Am” sums up the whole truth; the method is summarized in “Be Still.”
To know the truth of one’s Self as the sole Reality, and to merge and become one with it, is the only true Realization.
Just be the Self, that is all.
Because people want something elaborate and mysterious, so many religions have come into existence. Only those who are mature can understand the matter in its naked simplicity.
The ultimate truth is so simple; it is nothing more than being in one’s natural, original state.
It is a great wonder that to teach such a simple truth a number of religions should be necessary, and so many disputes should go on between them as to which is the God-ordained teaching. What a pity!
Your duty is to Be, and not be this or that.
The state we call Realization is simply being one’s self, not knowing anything or becoming anything.
It is not a matter of becoming but of Being.
Because people love mystery and not the truth, religions cater to them, eventually bringing them around to the Self.
Whatever be the means adopted, you must at last return to the Self; so why not abide in the Self here and now?
There is no greater mystery than this: Being Reality ourselves, we seek to gain Reality.
Abide as the Self.
Do not look for teachings…for the Self is beyond knowledge and ignorance.
— from “The Essential Teachings of Ramana Maharshi”
197. Kalyan Krishnan | July 31, 2008 at 6:55 am
S, I loved your reply. The boxer in you has managed to deliver some quick punches at key areas. It really smacks, OUCHH!!
Its fun to philosophize too,..just ask me, that is if you care.
The mind is such that it won’t allow me to be totally foolish. Wish I could!! But the mind thinks it is clever. It can’t do otherwise. For then it becomes No Mind. Just look at my “clever” reply here. Then your mind will start working to give me back a cleverer reply. This game will go on. But is it wrong? You can answer that.
What is foolish about “Only those who are not reading this; only they remain unscathed!”?
And then “so somehow one day a train will arrive and will get rid of my miseries.” The train will never arrive. It has never ever arrived. That’s why we are all here, minding our own little businesses. We are the train. OOOPPS!!
Mind is not BAD! But it thinks it is clever. And if you give in to this notion of the Mind, without knowing that is, you will be caught in the Whirlpool Matrix of Maya. You will never know what is “coming out”. Ignorance will become the shield. None can help you (this is not a personal attack; I am just enjoying philosophizing!!) then.
Mind is NOT a great tool. The more one uses it the more one becomes deluded. Just look at me! I am trying to answer you from my deepest of delusions. My Knowing Self doesn’t care!! My Knowing self is the same as Your knowing Self.
Now about Let’s stop parroting from books. Why do you MIND? HA! HA! HA!
Don’t you think I am Minding my (our) own business by replying to you? That is my business, at the moment, at least.
So tell me did I punch you at the right places? Awaiting your punches!!
Aside: This piece was supposed to be posted before your latest one on Ramana Maharshi. Damned connection at my side! Will go back to reading that after I post this.
198. Kalyan Krishnan | July 31, 2008 at 7:18 am
How long has it been since you have seen yourself stark naked in a mirror? I guess its been a long time. I saw myself a few moments ago. Now I can’t help laughing after reading your piece of Ramana Maharshi. It was a piece of cake, so I ate it. Now I hear rumblings inside my stomach. What is that?
Self Realization is a great game. No one can win at it. Those who have, don’t speak about it. Those who think they have, philosophize about it.
We are all blind; and we are all trying to lead each other. All means all. Just name anyone, and you can bet any amount on the fact that that entity is blind.
I am not enlightened; that is the crux of the matter. Until I am I’ll continue to rave and rant like I’m doing now. And the internet is a great place to be in. I don’t know who you are. Yet here I am enjoying trading punches with you.
Believe me, I have nothing better to do in life. Either I am here or I am whiling away my time doing something else. I have become an expert at doing things that others don’t comprehend.
My only problem in life is that I AM NOT ENLIGHTENED. And my feeling of helplessness arises from the fact that I can’t do anything about it. Now I can hear my Inner Self laughing. I can almost hear it saying, ” Fool! Why can’t you be?”
199. sulochanosho | July 31, 2008 at 9:57 am
Let me throw some wise or otherwise words here for I have nothing to do:
Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth.
~Ludwig Börne
Before enlightenment – chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment – chop wood, carry water.
~Zen Buddhist Proverb
If you think you’re free, there’s no escape possible.
~Ram Dass
No matter where you go or what you do, you live your entire life within the confines of your head.
~Terry Josephson
The obstacle is the path.
~Zen Proverb
It is easy to stand a pain, but difficult to stand an itch.
~Chang Ch’ao
A thousand men can’t undress a naked man.
~Greek Proverb
200. Kalyan Krishnan | July 31, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Some wisecracks from me:
Having an illusion is better than finding the truth.
(Truth can never be found)
Chop wood and carry water instead of hankering after enlightenment.
(For me this is easier said than done)
There is no escape from this freedom.
(You are bound to be free one day, so enjoy the bondage as long as it lasts)
Itching is the most enjoyable experience.
(This I am speaking from first hand experience. Even now ooohhh, aahhh!!)
201. Suresh | August 1, 2008 at 2:39 pm
KK, you did I punch me not only at the right places but all over .
And I think I need a kick in my @#$.
By the way , for your information , I see myself in the nude almost every day ( because there is huge mirror in the bath room ) and I’m pretty pleased with what I see and I love every bit of myself inside out.
You are the some of those very rare species who’s frequency has tuned with my antenna.
Even if you punch , it is sweet.
Like true friends we can say and share anything that matters us most , doesn’t matter whether it hurts us, contradicts us, whether it is true or false. Lets be open and embrace everything even if some of it we cannot digest.
I wish the whole world would be like us ( the people on this post ) discussing and sharing frankly their true egos, wisdom( mostly borrowed), feelings , frustrations, joys and sorrows.
Without people like you , world would pretty boring place.
Now, Imagine a scenario where every one of us are enlightened. Imagine that. Pretty scary, isn’t it?
I blame it on to God .
First of all he created us all . He ( or she or without name-form) made us ALL dumb , en-enlightened .Then he created religions , theories , dogmas etc etc , and put that garbage in our minds. Created fights among us . Then he wants us to be enlightened . He played a big prank on us . And in the end he wants us to chop the wood “before” and “after”.What a joke.
And you should be proud of yourself ( and me too) that God has given us that Grey matter which thinks.Which is capable of thinking on its own turf. Thank god.
The question that everyone of us must answer to oneself honestly is ” Have we become better human beings , and do we love ourselves and people and everything around us ?” ( I’m trying to be preacher-like , but so be it) Then the whole purpose of life would be meaningful.. Else life is actually meaningless.
In mean time I am happy being un-enlightened , ignorant , egoistic , blah , blah, blah
How about you ?
202. sulochanosho | August 1, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Thank u SURESH for the best joke at last. Yes only the salt in you that can make such nude jokes:
And our Kalyan Krishnan is no less in it, when he says:
I swear there’s no enlightenment or whatever shit you call beyond this – a hundred times I say it!
203. sulochanosho | August 1, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Be NUDE, that’s the only way to GOD.
204. Kalyan Krishnan | August 1, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Well, well, well!! We are beginning to get somewhere. The only problem being that we will know only when we get there.
And these words
“You are the some of those very rare species who’s frequency has tuned with my antenna.
Even if you punch , it is sweet.
Like true friends we can say and share anything that matters us most , doesn’t matter whether it hurts us, contradicts us, whether it is true or false.”
make my eyes moist. It gives a strange feeling somewhere deep inside; something that words cannot describe.
And this Without people like you , world would pretty boring place. makes me pretty embarrassed at myself. Genuine feelings make me cry; even if I watch them in movies. They are very rare. I am always scared that I will not be able to match up consistently to such high standards of humaneness.
It is at such times that I bow my head to God; such moments are enough proof that God is just round the corner.
Otherwise, frankly speaking, life is just one big joke for me. There is nothing to do in life really. Just carry on, that’s all. Nobody has been able to prove me otherwise. Every notion can be blown up. Even the notion of a God, Karma, Dharma and what not. I have been arguing enough with people all around me. They are all meaningless. And I can’t keep silent either. So I believe in a lot of shit to keep my battery recharged all the time.
Like for example, I exist in another dimension. My Higher Self. My Soul. My Twin Soul. Even after realizing that they are mere projections of my own thoughts.
It scares me to realize that actually I AM all alone across existence. Because you, me and all are actually ONE. I am just the projection of the original thought source into this Space-Time Warp and all that comes with including this Maya Matrix.
I am aware of the severe conditioning of my brain and I also know that in this physical plane I am quite helpless about this. Nobody, including myself, can help me. Any apparent help is only that – apparent, an appearance, a deep delusion.
One among the many answers that I seek (again, seeking here is a result of the deep conditioning, not genuine really) is why I have managed to project myself into this particular point in evolution. Into this particular role. I am not really up to it.
Really there’s no enlightenment or whatever shit you call beyond this – no matter how many times you say it. This is all there is.
205. Kalyan Krishnan | August 2, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Now a few words about Faith:
Faith is more than belief. Faith comes after one receives some spiritual insight. Perfect faith comes from deep realization.
It is also true that Doubting Minds are Inwardly Divided. For those who seek the journey upward, it is advisable to take the plunge. Believe in every shit you come across. This provisional belief will push you upwards towards the Cosmic Vibration, then onwards towards the Christ Consciousness and finally into a state of Oneness with the Supreme One.
The question that would naturally arise into the mind of my reader is whether I have first hand experience of whatever is written above, or whether I am parroting somebody. What does it matter? My experiences are of no use to anyone but me.
Believe in this shit that I have offered to you. You are not going to be at loss. Discover the child in you; who wants to readily believe in fairy tales. They are worth the belief you put in them.
Don’t seek proofs! Proofs are of no use. They only serve to stimulate the logical mind. The heart remains untouched and unmoved by mere proofs. If you start believing the proofs will come by naturally.
Finally, my words here are mere words. What I am actually trying to do is to share my spiritual and uplifting vibrations with one and all. After all we are all an expression of God. And only together shall we all arise out of the spiritual ignorance and attain the true wealth of our existence.
206. Free Mind | August 2, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Good article. Muslims these days contradict with themselves when they worship their scholars. You can visit http://www.free-minds.org for a completely different view about Islam and it is shocking to these days Muslims.
207. Suresh | August 5, 2008 at 5:55 am
Kalyan Krishnan ,
You are right on bulls eye.
One has to start somewhere.
From Ignorant about being ignorant
to knowing about one’s igorancy
to knowing a littelbit through glimses of truth
by practicing faith, Karma, Bhakti, or whatever path you may want to undertake
to true faith and meditation
to the highest level of attainmet ( I’m not there yet)
Evey one has birth right to get these glimpses of higher truth .
( It doen’t matter if you are Muslim,Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, agnostic , ahtheist, theist , etc etc etc etc )
As long as you wnat to seek sicerely,
Ye shall find.
And as I always say I’m no exception.
And I’m on “my- way” and you are on your’s
God bless KK, you , me and all
208. Kalyan Krishnan | August 5, 2008 at 12:11 pm
However, it is also true that one shouldn’t accept something that one cannot verify oneself!
So don’t believe anything that doesn’t come from one’s within. Something that you cannot verify from within. See, no proofs are required here. Only that it should be attested by your heart. Let the others remain as fairy tales.
Go by your instinct. Even if it contradicts somebody else’s instinct. And don’t oppose the others’ instinct. Let him have his way too! I AM the only witness to God who is within me. I AM all that is required to know HIM. I don’t require a third party to meddle in my affairs with GOD.
My relationship with GOD is a secret, hidden within the deep recesses of my heart. If I act in ignorance, it remains hidden even from me. So be cautious and don’t be a hypocrite and thus cheat yourself. Listen to the Inner Voice from within your heart. That is the only true source of the secrets of your existence across all dimensions. It will lead you from Moment to Moment. This is the Essence of this Mayic journey.
The above words are meant for me as they come from your heart. Now that you have read it, corroborate or refute it with the testimony of your own heart. The rest I leave it to you…
Writing here is turning out to be an interesting pastime…
PS: The link provided in #206 is good and enough to consume the next few hours of mine.
209. Kalyan Krishnan | August 5, 2008 at 12:20 pm
The above words are meant for me as they come from your heart.
Correction!!
The above words are meant for me as they come from my heart.
210. Kalyan Krishnan | August 6, 2008 at 5:51 am
And then I judge my instincts with my common sense. My common sense and not somebody else’s! Again there is no one between me and God.
My heart is the deliverer of instincts. My brain supplies the common sense to judge my instincts. Then my mind acts on the final verdict. That way my mind is my tool.
But there is a problem here. Ages of conditioning has made my mind susceptible to false images. So sometimes there is a tendency for me to act on the impulse of false images. The instinct, the Inner Voice, which is ever so loud and clear guides the way through this muddle.
Then when I apply my common sense the truth is laid separate from the falsehood of conditioning. But most of the time I turn a blind eye and choose to go along the way of my conditioning and turn into a hypocrite. Thus do I cheat myself and in the process cheat others too.
These words are for me…Corroborate or refute accordingly. Either way, know that you are right!
And in the meantime let me go back to reading the contents of:
211. Kalyan Krishnan | August 6, 2008 at 5:56 am
Here is the link again:
212. Joel Pastakia | August 6, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Fuck Off Kalyan Krishnan !!! Please stop ur silly sermonising, you moron.
213. Kalyan Krishnan | August 6, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Should I listen to you or should I follow my own Inner cravings? Anyway, am off to sleep now.. All I can say is that you have been affected (or is it effected?) by the words of a moron! ughh!!?
Maybe I will jerk off tonight anyway..HA!
214. Kalyan Krishnan | August 7, 2008 at 3:02 am
Joel Pastakia,
Okay, I get your point!
I was trying to do something that comes naturally to me –
Sermonizing!!
Sermonizing always has the effect of putting me under a unique spotlight. This tendency to showcase what is ‘natural’ in me has finally backfired.
It was thus far giving the false appearance of an achievement. I was actually teetering dangerously between living God’s gift to me and exhibiting that very gift to invite all of your accolades. Now I realize that this was actually nullifying the beauty, simplicity and value of this wonderful gift.
You see I am truly a very humble ( HUMILITY is my only virtue) person and I have not been able to realize that I am truly exceptional! Isn’t it natural that one can only appreciate that which has already been awakened in oneself.
Joel, I understand your predicament!!
I thank you and thus respond with the utmost humility.
PS: I couldn’t jerk off last night!! I will try it sometime today.
215. Joel Pastakia | August 7, 2008 at 3:44 am
Kalyan Krsihnan: You are a harmless idiot with a penchant for boast and garrulity. Your spiritual achievements are zero – this is obvious. Ur egoism is veiled by ur mock humility. Go to a shrink and calm down. U’ve nothing of substance to offer considering ur empty philosophisizing and zero mystical achievements. You are a harmless idiot, I repeat.
216. Joel Pastakia | August 7, 2008 at 3:45 am
Kalyan Krishnan: You are a harmless idiot with a penchant for boast and garrulity. Your spiritual achievements are zero – this is obvious. Ur egoism is veiled by ur mock humility. Go to a shrink and calm down. U’ve nothing of substance to offer considering ur empty philosophisizing and zero mystical achievements. You are a harmless idiot, I repeat.
217. Kalyan Krishnan | August 7, 2008 at 7:09 am
I really appreciate your comments, Joel. I am really a very innocent fellow. Thank God, you were able to recognize me as such.
And then let me add that Philosophy, for that matter any philosophy, is devoid of content.
How do you measure spiritual achievements? I think ZERO is the largest spiritual number. There is nothing beyond zero in the spiritual world or dimension. I think you made a mistake when you looked beyond yourself for any kind of mystical achievement.
My offerings are to myself and myself alone. Only I can partake of the experience that are due to me.
As far as shrinks are concerned, I did consult a few in the past. But they were of no help. I am as restless as ever – treading the thin line between the sane and the insane.
I have realized, finally, that no one can help me. And that goes for everyone. There is no help available at all. Looking for help is as futile as futile can be. So better live through it.
So all I am trying to do through this blog space is to empty my mind. You are in for dangerous times if you pick them up and become affected (and please help me with this word..is it effected?). You won’t even know what hit you.
But I love such verbal duels. So waiting for more from your side….
218. Kalyan Krishnan | August 7, 2008 at 7:41 am
And now something between you and me, Joel:
Idiocy is there in my genes. It runs in the family; don’t know since when.
Then there is an island mark on my Line of Head in both palms.
This confirms the above fact. Also, the moon in my natal chart is in the 8th house. Ask any astrologer and he will corroborate the above.
So you see I can’t be blamed for what I am.
But please, this is between you and me. I don’t know how I should hide this darn fact from others. Maybe DRV can help. Or maybe he can’t. So better that this be known to the world. Can’t help it anyway as this has already been posted.
PS: By the way Joel, when did you last jerk off? I have been trying since last night. Something seems to have gone wrong. I will give it one more try and call it quits.
219. baawra | August 7, 2008 at 9:17 am
KK, pl. stop ur comments now. Nobody is interested in your experiences and what type of persona u are.
Pl. & Pl. dont reply to my comment, just shut-up.
I just lost what was the topic all were discussing here.
DRV pl. delete this jerks’ comments as all his comments were not related to this topic. MR. KK SUPER SMART had made more than 24 comments and not even a single comment is related to the topic in any angle.
KK, pl. find some other place to throw ur shit. Is that clear
uuuuu @@@#$%$$@$#$%
220. joel pastakia | August 7, 2008 at 11:46 am
Kalyan Krishnan, you are a pervert who pretends to be cool but at heart you’re an abnormal jerk. See, the site is devoted to a duel between the fanatical Islamic preacher Dr Zakir Naik and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. But, you’ve digressed so much that I appeal to the moderator to please ask Kalyan Krishnan to stick to the point of the discussion or to quit. And, if he still persists with his inanities and diversionary tactics, please ban him from this forum.
221. Dr. Sreedhar Rao Sonti | August 7, 2008 at 1:21 pm
The Corporeal Energy – Origin
The corporeal energy is a derivative of the cosmic background energy, remnant of the BIG BANG, a catastrophic beginning of the primordial Universe. This relic energy (2.73 degree Kelvin) fabric stretches along the horizons of the expanding universe across lumps of matter like stars, galaxies and planets; all these were evolved over billions of years from the non-homogeneities in this fabric(energy converted into matter like hydrogen, helium gases and dark matter). Modern science has proved that the whole existence is just a reverberation of this energy.
The stars thus formed, synthesize elements from primordial dust and gas by violent reactions at very high temperatures present in their cores. Due to gravitational instabilities these early stars exploded violently (Super Nova) spewing out plasma, into the surroundings, rich in elements which are the essential building blocks of the form and life we are experiencing today. The second generation stars and their planets born from this primordial soup of processed elements by the dead ones, become the ultimate source of energy and life habitats. This process of birth and death of stars proceed ad infinitum. We are indeed made up of star stuff. Therefore, we are all one and the same, separated only by space and time.
222. Kalyan Krishnan | August 7, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Joel Pastakia, if I have digressed then you are also partly to blame.
You could have written right at the onset of my posts to stay with the topic. for your information and if you follow my posts you will find that I have only replied to previous topics.
So let me turn away from the diversion by stating that we are all inane and perverted in some way or the other.
Okay, I used to regularly watch the Peace TV programs of Dr. Zakir Naik until recently; especially for its entertainment value. Now they have become too monotonous and predictive. That man is clearly fighting a losing battle. He knows it in its heart. I have many Muslim friends who totally disagree with his ways. They say he is too commercial and doesn’t represent the true face of Islam.
I have read the Qur’an in parts and the various dissertations both online as well as offline. My personal view is that if you take the Qur’an as the last source of resolving a fued there wouldn’t be any problem at all. Qur’an is God Almighty’s Word and and if you true to your Inner Voice you will have followed the Qur’an even withour having read it. It is indeed a powerful book and if you read it there wouldn’t be any cause for doubt.
The pity is that less than 10% of the Muslims may have actually read it on their own – I don’t mean the usual memorizing chores in the madrasas. If you ask a Muslim about his religion he would almost always direct you to some scholarly person when God mentions clearly in the book that there is to be no intermediary between him and his creatures,
and that includes all the prophets. Prophets are mere messengers.
99% of today’s “Muslims” have been mislead by Satan into taking a partner for God and His True Word (scholars, imams and scriptures beside the Qur’an). They have relied on other sources for their rituals more than the Qur’an itself, which is a complete book in itself. I have talked to Muslims of all hues and the vibration they exude is that of deep conditioning as if they are in some kind of stupor; typical of someone who has been deceived by the devil.
Thats why I mentioned somewhere before that it is the descent of the true consciousness onearth that would lift this heavy veil that has covered the eyes of not only Muslims but Hindus, Christians, and most of mankind. Its allpart of the evolutionary chain and nothing would be found to be out of place in the final analysis. Such are the ways of
God, the All Knowing Supreme One.
223. Kalyan Krishnan | August 7, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Regarding the corporeal energy and our relation to it, there is a super symmetry that exists between energy and matter. Both are vibrations at different frequencies.
In fact our existence as we see it today is nothing but a speck in the cosmic spiral that has come into being (or can we say that it was eternally present – without beginning and without end). The Universe as we perceive it is one among many and is constantly moving up this spiral creating the cycles of evolution. Thus it is true that repetitions do apparently occur but the fact is that we have always moved a level up.
Our present stage in consciousness is confined within 4 dimensions. Looking from where we are we can have no idea of the 5th dimension; but the 5th dimension does exist and so do all the other dimensions. Our existence in totality spans across all dimensions. The Higher Dimensions are aware of the lower ones but not so is the case in reverse. Its akin to saying that God knows everything about us but we don’t and cannot know anything about God. For that we need to raise our level of consciousness. But however farther up we go there is always a dimension above us. Thus the Final Word rests with God Himself.
What I am trying to say is that all scientific theories are nothing but speculations and the deeper we go into the cosmos the more complex it becomes. We are trying to fill our small pails with the waters of the oceans. What can be more spurious than that.
But then the question of mental stimulation remains. Well all theorizing ends up in that – Mental Stimulation and nothing else. Good Night, Folks!! Good night, Joel! (wherever you are, ughh!!)
224. Joel Pastakia | August 8, 2008 at 3:26 am
The present version of the Quran is misleading as it has been tampered with.
Among the several competing versions of the original Quran that cropped up much after the passing away of the Prophet Muhammad, the present version was compiled, edited and distorted by Caliph Uthman – a direct disciple of Muhammad. The errors, contradictions and hate it contains are shocking which is why terrorists justify their violent acts against “infidels” the reason being that subjugation or mistreatment of minorities is present in copious amounts in this Quran.
Islamic theocracies are simply putting into practice what the Quran teaches them.
Before the Vedas, Upanishads or Geeta, the Quran pales and on the contrary it comes across as an anti-existence text preaching horrible inhuman, irrational and cruel stuff. Those few portions of the Quran that preach sense like some of its teachings on morality, adherence, faith are not original but are copies of older knowledge/books.
If the Muslims, by clinging to this distorted version of the Quran, don’t change, I guess, natural justice will soon intervene to harshly correct them. Already, nature has thwarted Muslims as a community by relegating them to the bottom of the heap in every constructive field…and more despair awaits them…
225. Joel Pastakia | August 8, 2008 at 3:41 am
Prophet means the supreme manifestation of the Absolute Consciousness on the earth plane.
The Prophet preceding Muhammad was Jesus and it does appear that the Prophet who came after Muhammad was Chaitanya, after Chaitanya came the Great Ram Krishna Paramhans….The Godhead keeps descending in response to the needs of the time with, as Kalyan correctly stating, the ultimate aim being the establishment/manifestation of the non-dual Divine Consciousness in matter (on earth).
The extra-cosmic Personal God of the present version of the Quran who creates out of nothing and who growls, curses, blesses, farts and discriminates among nations (Dar-ul-islam versus Dar-ul Harb) by labeling those who worship God differently (and in far more worthy ways than what little has been “revealed” by the present Quran) from his extra-cosmic heaven is pure fiction and thus such whimsical theories as found in the Quran cannot explain anything sensibly or convincingly apart from converting one into an empty headed, cruel, crazed, moronic bigot.
226. Joel Pastakia | August 8, 2008 at 3:45 am
CORRECTED MESSAGE: Sorry for the waste of space.
The word Prophet means the supreme manifestation of the Absolute Consciousness on the earth plane.
The Prophet preceding Muhammad was Jesus and it does appear that the Prophet who came after Muhammad was most certainly Chaitanya, after Chaitanya came the Great Ram Krishna Paramhans….The Godhead keeps descending in response to the needs of the time with, as Kalyan correctly stating, the ultimate aim being the establishment/manifestation of the non-dual Divine Consciousness in matter (on earth).
The extra-cosmic Personal God of the present version of the Quran who creates out of nothing and who growls, curses, blesses, farts and discriminates among nations (Dar-ul-islam versus Dar-ul Harb) by labeling as “evil” those who worship God differently (and in far more worthy ways than what little has been “revealed” by the present Quran) from his extra-cosmic heaven is pure fiction and thus such whimsical theories as found in the Quran cannot explain anything sensibly or convincingly apart from converting one into an empty headed, cruel, crazed, moronic bigot.
227. Kalyan Krishnan | August 8, 2008 at 4:05 am
I would like to present my point of view here:
The Qur’an doesn’t contain errors, contradictions and hate. But I can’t comment against the claim that it has been distorted. But my Inner Self says that it hasn’t been distorted. It could not have been.
Yes but Satan has played a big role after the time of Mohammed. Slowly he weaned the people away from the system (please don’t misunderstand this word) laid down by God. With God’s own permission Satan has misled his people. (There is an evolutionary purpose behind this and Satan has very well worked out God’s plans).
What happened is that very much against the Quranic injunctions people of those times were hell bent on collecting the Hadiths and other scripture and started forming rituals and rules accordingly; much against what God’s own Word.
Slowly years of indoctrination and terrific Mental Conditioning based on the scriptures in madrasas have led the people astray. Now a huge majority of so called Muslims follow these second hand resources rather than follow the one and only true scripture – The Qur’an. Of course, they hold aloft this book while trying to defend their faith. They have sinned most against the Word of God. And whether hell fire awaits them I can’t say. Each one of them will have to ask their own Conscience. But with all the layers of conditioning this isn’t going to be such an easy task.
Yes they have to first submit their will to the Will of God and reject all second hand knowledge.
Just following one’s Inner Voice will make one a true Muslim a true follower of Islam. The Qur’an is always there to guide you otherwise. Submit yourself to your God and let no intermediary come in between. I AM enough unto God.
228. Kalyan Krishnan | August 8, 2008 at 4:25 am
I have had various discussions with a variety of Muslims. Very few and indeed very few have actually read the Qur’an with an intention to understand what God requires of them. This is apart all the memorizing that are done in madrasas.
Ask any lay Muslim about his religion and he will either direct you to some scholar or quote this and that well known personalities or quote from all the second hand Islamic scriptures.
They will ask you to go and debate Zakir Naik. Most of them lack first hand knowledge of God’s Word. This is totally against what God has mentioned and require of them to do. Ask them what the study of Islam is and they invariably will point to the study of ‘Islamic History’ and the Hadith scriptures. They fail to realize that Islam is beyond history and it resides deep in your heart.
Of course debating with them always leads to convoluted logic and extreme cases of double talk. The devil has won the first round. God has let him win. Because God has his own ways. He commands you to look Inside and go no further. The moment you step outside you fall into the hands of the gleeful devil.
The Qur’an is well protected and is complete. One need not go any further. It doesn’t need companions in the form of the Hadiths. So don’t malign the Qur’an – Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
229. Kalyan Krishnan | August 8, 2008 at 4:46 am
As far as ‘creating out of nothing is concerned’, the 4th dimension is created out of a nothing that ‘is’ in the 5th dimension. I mean the Nothingness that is not found in the 4th dimension.
If you try to find the source of creation in the 4th dimension you will find nothing.
After this primordial creation everything follows as an offshoot and has answers in the 4th dimension. That is the limitation of modern day science. It hovers within the confines of the 4th dimensions. It is dimly aware of that thing which is beyond its grasp.
At present only meditation will lead you to the nothing of the 4tn dimension that actually exists in the 5th dimension. Beyond that I don’t know and I don’t know anyone who knows. Do you?
So the Qur’an is correct when god says that He created this Universe out of nothing. The universe of this 4th dimension was created out of the nothingness of the 5th dimension.
230. Kalyan Krishnan | August 8, 2008 at 5:05 am
The Qur’an isn’t ‘anti-existence text preaching horrible inhuman, irrational and cruel stuff. ‘.
Qur’an doesn’t discriminate among nations (Dar-ul-islam versus Dar-ul Harb are the result of the so called Muslims following second hand scriptures)
The Qur’an doesn’t convert anyone into an empty headed, cruel, crazed, moronic bigot.
All the above are the result of the people following sources other than the one true scripture He gave through Prophet Mohammed. The devil is deceitful by his very nature and he is here only to deceive people. The devil has run amuck amongst God’s esteemed creation.
Now is the time to reverse all that. The four godheads of evil as mentioned by Sri Aurobindo have already left the earthly plane; save one (read Sri Aurobindo’s works to know who or what that is).
Unlike other creatures of Light, Satan still hasn’t taken his pre-destined human birth. This is what is meant when it is said that Satan didn’t bow to Adam, the Human. He has scorned the human birth thus far. But evolution shall be complete only when Satan descends and partakes of this human existence. All efforts are on to make him ‘condescend’.
Now am I digressing – SORRY!
231. Kalyan Krishnan | August 8, 2008 at 5:47 am
Personally, I don’t think Prophet means the supreme manifestation of the Absolute Consciousness on the earth plane. Prophet is only a messenger and speaks by Divine Inspiration. The Prophet belongs to his times but the Divine Words that flow through his mouth are for all ages.
In that sense Chaitanya and Ramakrishna Paramahansa weren’t prophets. Yes, they were Vibhutis. They possessed transcendental knowledge.
Krishna is the Divine Consciousness. The historic Krishna was an Avatar Purush.
We have to touch Krishna as we ascend the levels of Consciousness to get a glimpse of the Divine beyond. Christ Consciousness is the same as the Krishna Consciousness.
Krishna dwells in my heart, your heart; the very deep recesses of the heart. I AM Krishna. Kalyan Krishnan isn’t Krishna. I AM Krishna. Kalyan Krishnan isn’t merged with Krishna and neither has he found Krishna. Only I AM Krishna. Kalyan Krishnan is just an identity, and has to give himself up in due course of time.
Sri Aurobindo say that Krishna is the Overmind Consciousness, one step away from the Supreme Consciousness (if memory serves me right). You can contradict me here if you wish to. There is so much stuffed inside my brain that I may have to expurgate it soon, else I will lose my mind.
Now I need a break. Goodbye to you all, for the time being. And please notify me if I have digressed,….
232. Suresh | August 9, 2008 at 7:18 am
First Hand experience is what counts :
The Buddha instructs the Kalama People on which basis one should decide which religious teaching to accept as true. The Buddha tells the Kalamas to not just believe religious teachings because they are claimed to be true by various sources or through the application of various methods and techniques. He urges that direct knowledge from one’s own experience should be called upon. He notably does not, however, say (contrary to popular misconception) that his own teachings should not be accepted or not accorded trust: rather, he counsels that the words of the wise should be heeded and taken into account when deciding upon the value of a teaching.
* Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing ;
* nor upon tradition
* nor upon rumor ;
* nor upon what is in a scripture ;
* nor upon surmise;
* nor upon an axiom;
* nor upon specious reasoning;
* nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over;
* nor upon another’s seeming ability;
* nor upon the consideration, “The monk is our teacher.”
* Kalamas, when you yourselves know: “These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,” enter on and abide in them.’
First hand experience is what counts. Taste the sugar to find how it tastes. everything else is theory. Everything else is description. And “description” is not “the described” . This is what Kabir says.
233. Kalyan Krishnan | August 9, 2008 at 10:39 am
But until one experiences that experience one is helpless. It is not offered on a platter. It is a tricky situation and the pitfalls are many.
Who are the wise ones?
There is only way – go the way of the instinct. The apparent price may seem too heavy. Yet that is the only assured way – because that is my way. As Krishna says in the Geeta – Do your duty, do your Karma and don’t hanker after the fruits. Don’t let anything deter you from doing your Karma.
Your Karma only you know. If you don’t, then don’t do anything. Then that is your Karma. It is very tricky indeed. You are lucky if you are in the right company, in the company of a right Guru. However, it is very easy to be misled by false gurus.
There is indeed no solution, at least for me, and all I can do is to do what I can do best – whatever that is. Communion with the Inner Self is important. That is the only solace.
God only knows why He is playing this game; what this Leela is all about!
234. Joel Pastakia | August 9, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Kayan:
Before entering a debate, I suggest you fully read up on relevant subjects before making comments.You claim that you’ve read just parts of the Quran but here you’re defending it based on your incomplete reading/analysis of the book.
Now, you say that Muslims have learnt about Dar-ul-Islam and Dar-ul-Harb from second hand books. Which are these books? The present version of the Quran clearly divides the world into Dar-ul-Islam and Dar-ul-Harb.
The original Quran must certainly have been divine and in sync with the teachings of other great scriptures. Scholars have discovered that much after the passing away of Muhammad several competing versions of the Quran arose and finally it was Caliph Uthman who introduced the present Quran which is why it contains so many flaws…..
In one place you claim that you’ve only read parts of the quran but here you’re arguing that it is a perfect book. Kindly read the different translations of the present Quran – by Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Shakir, etc and then you’ll know what I mean.
Several scholarly articles have debunked the tall claims of the Quran and have shown it to be a book with errors.
By the way, Sri Aurobindo on several occasions has criticized the Quran and said that it is an imperfect, incomplete book with a very ordinary philosophy. Vivekananda too spoke against the cruelty and intolerance that it preaches.
Allah is a Vedic Sanskrit word that means the Ishwar Consciousness (Personal God).
The Supreme Brahman or Godhead in manifestation gives rise to several controllers/powers and the graded cosmos itself.
The Sagun Brahman has 2 aspects – the lower is the controller with form and attributes, the higher aspect is formless but has attributes.
Allah/Ishwar correspond to the higher aspect of the Sagun Brahman – formless but possessing attributes.
Exceeding the Sagun Brahman is the Nirgun Brahman – that aspect of the Supreme Brahman or Godhead that is formless and has no attributes. Beyond the Nirgun Brahman lie superfine mechanism that ultimately lead to the Supreme Brahman or the Godhead – this is the ineffable Pure Consciousness that can only be talked about in negatives neti neti (not this, not that) and as such the Supreme Brahman or Godhead exceeds both form and formlessness, name and namelesnes, attributes and non-attributes; It is the supra cosmic Source of everything.
From the Supreme Brahman, that serves as both the material as well as efficient Cause, everything comes into being or gets manifested. Thus, the Supreme Brahman is the Ultimate Unity and Source which thus renders the Quranic idea of creation out of nothing meaningless and unscientific. Every dimension is a manifestation of the Supreme Brahman or Godhead. Consequently, creation out of nothing is impossible (Aurobindo has severely criticized this ridiculous idea and so have everyone else with a little intelligence).
Something cannot be created out of nothing. In fact, the word “creation” is a misnomer when the actual term to be used is “manifestation” since everything subtle or gross is an aspect of the Supreme Source.
Now, Prophet/Avatar/Incarnation is the direct descent of the Supreme Brahman or Godhead onto the earth plane and Aurobindo has clearly said so in his analysis of the Gita but later on he changed that (as with a few other of his earlier statements) and claimed that a Prophet like Krishna was the Overmind Consciousness.
When the Godhead Itself descends onto the earth, it is called Prophet/Incarnation/Avatar. In fact, Krishna, Ram, Jesus, Chaitanya, Paramhans and others at times clearly referred to themselves as the Godhead which shows that Prophet is the same as the Godhead/Supreme Brahman and is not a mere Messenger. For instance, Jesus said, “I and My Father are One !”
Prophet as a mere Messenger is the Islamic idea as contained in the corrupted version of the Quran.
If Chaitanya and Ramkrishna were not Prophets, then how can it be said that Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad, Ram or Buddha were Prophets? Well, for the sake of argument, to put it bluntly, there’s no archeological proof to corroborate the historicity of Ram, Jesus, Muhammad or Buddha and how do we know they were Prophets? So, the matter ends here.
The present Quran arrogantly states that Muhammad was the last Prophet but it is common knowledge that Prophets keep coming and going as per the needs of the time. So, obvioulsy, the claim is fictitious. I am awaiting the Kalki…..Perhaps, He’s come….
Incidentally, Mam, Mim, Ra and other sonic syllables found in the Quran are original tantrik mantras that correspond to the different aspects of the cosmic consciousness upto the cosmic mind plane; Makka in Sanskrit means fire, Kaaba in Sanskrit means Shiva temple, Kaabali in Sanskrit is Shiva…till today ancient Shiva temples with spring wells attached are called Kaabali.
The Jews, who historians suspect to be originally from Kashmir, modified the Sanskrit word Allah and converted it into El/Eloi (a synonym for Yahweh), Jesus used Allah as Allaha in Aramaic and the pre-Islamic Arabs used the word Allah (together with Allah’s 3 daughters Al Lat, al Mannat and Al Uzza) to denote their personal God.
Well, much more can be said but i have to leave for a meeting.
235. Kalyan Krishnan | August 9, 2008 at 3:02 pm
To tell you frankly, after reading your post above I’m in a dilemma. All I was trying to do was to find harmony among the different faiths.
When I first went through the Qur’an I found myself detesting my previous faith, viz Hinduism with all its rituals and idol worshiping. But I never wanted to convert. I always held and still hold that conversion is the most stupid thing to do. Okay, beliefs can change but there was no need to produce physical evidence that I have changed.
Somehow my conditioning regarding faith started to wean. Then I was drawn towards the New Age beliefs, channeled messages and Theosophy.
My quest began at an early age with Vivekananda and then Sri Aurobindo. At one point of time reading Sri Aurobindo was the only pastime I had. I have even spent time at various ashrams and communes. My earliest jaunt was Auroville.
I confess that I never had any direct experience of anything extra-dimensional. All my ideas were borrowed from here and there. Today they are all mixed up and I don’t really find it necessary to quote the source of my writings.
Now I have reached a stage wherein I find that the dark tunnel is still long and shows no sign of ending. There is no light at the end of this tunnel. My childhood is over and most of those elderly people I used to cherish have left the earthly plane. I have begun to feel lonely and cold and I don’t find anything worthwhile to do in life.
So I am just egging on and on… My Instinct is all that I have with me. I am hoping it will see me through. Yes, it is still a mere hope.
236. Kalyan Krishnan | August 9, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Just to add to my previous post, I would like to state that the Qur’an isn’t the source of evil that could be so easily attributed to it. Evil is there in the human mind. Evil arises out of perversion. The human mind by nature is perverted. It resides in darkness.
Look at what happened in Nandigram, West Bengal. Then how can we disown Gujarat.
Now I clearly feel that Qur’an is Holy and Muslims have no right to hold it aloft to uphold their beliefs which is based more on the hadiths and its parasitic linking with the Qur’an. More then 90% of today’s Muslims have nothing to do with the teachings of the Qur’an. No doubt they use convoluted rhetoric and apparently get away with it. The devil is in complete control of their minds and it quotes from God’s book to get away with its misdeeds.
A child’s mind is like soft clay. It can be molded anyway you want. The religious people are well aware of it and thus they trap them in their dragnet and make them lose all their sense of reasoning. But times are such that there is going to be a drastic change in the outlook of the modern generation. They will be naturally more aware than us.
In the end I would like to state that there is a lot of confusion in the minds of those who are trying to seek out the straight path. But being confused is a good sign, that’s what I was told…it is better than possessing a dead mind.
237. Joel Pastakia | August 10, 2008 at 3:40 am
Kalyan: You’ve come across as very confused in most of your posts, I now undertsnad why.
I am surprised that you wished to convert after reading the juvenile stuff on offer in a book as inane as the present version of the Quran that’s, I repeat, replete with errors, contradictions, superstitions and hate.
This aside why would you want to leave the grand monistic Sanataan Dharma for the puerile dualistic teachings found in the Quran. Leave aside the well documented multiple errors in this Quran, but even where faith is concerned all that it has has to offer is childish dualistic teachings – that there exists a God (Allah) who lives outside the cosmos, who some-how creates out of nothing, who though uncausally connected with the cosmos yet some-how-or-the-other manages to govern it, who (as an aspect of the lowly Sagun Brahman) possesses dualistic human attributes (mercy, rage, jealousy, love, hate…) and who judges people on the basis of their performance of childish religious duties (silly and impotent rituals like offering of official prayers or namaz, fasting, circumbulating a stone at the Kaaba during the Hajj, slaughter of defenceless animals, persecution of non-Muslims under Islamic law, etc). Besides, its ideas on the afterlife are as ridiculous as its main pillars – that after death believers will enjoy in heaven: a non-physical place that ironically is constituted of physical elements such as rivers of milk, honey, wine, fruit trees and where voluptuous whores called houris and gay boys called ghilmans are there to satisfy a person’s perverse sexual desires, whereas non-believers and sinners will make it after death to a non-physical place named hell that is filled with physical horrors such as nails, scorpions, boiling water that’ll be poured down the backs of those condemned to hell or worse still that they’ll be barbecued in pits of fire for all time to come).
I mean is this sane? Not a single mention of something as profound as the Vedic states or planes of consciousness to explain conditions of the afterlife which make more sense in view of the fact that upon death the disembodied fine individual consciousness (soul) has varied vital or psychological experiences in keeping with its karmas. But, here in the Quran we come across something as crude as being relegated after death to a so-called spiritual place (heaven) that paradoxically is composed of gross physical substances to enjoy gross sensual desires or to undergo eternal suffering in another subtle place (hell) filled with physical elements like fire, reptiles and boiling water. Anything more stupid than this ? But what can be said of a book that preaches that Allah created the universe out of nothing and then it rushes to stupidly state that the universe was made from smoke (dukhan) when it’s a known fact that for smoke to form carbon particles will first have to be projected out of the superhot expanding primal energy.
Muahmmad’s Message was divine but most of it has been distorted or deleted from the several competing versions of the Quran that arose after His passing away. Tthe present version of the book is attributed to one of His direct disciples by name Uthman. Scholars have established all this and much more that totally overthrow the crude, primitive and hate filled messages of the present Quran.
I suspect that the original Quran too must have not contained too many incisive spiritual insights as Muhammad’s disciples though very loyal were utter fools and misinterpreted His divine messages. Abu Bakar, Ali, Omar, Uthman and others were not Yogis or Rishis by any standard. They distorted Muhammd’s divine message and introduced all sorts of crude dogmas and cruelties in Islam.
In one Hadith, I remember Muhammad saying: “I can smell the rich spiritual fragrance comening form Sur-e-Hind (India)…” and noted scholars like the late Dr Rafique Zakaria have clearly shown that Muhammad formulated Islam by seeking examples from the religion of Sur-e-Hind and so on…That Muhammad’s messages have been tampered or altered is due to the shortcomings of the disciples. In one instance, Abu Bakar is reported to have given up his seat on a horse in favor of a man who was walking on hot sand and upon being asked why he gave up his seat, Bakar said that being charitable to the man would certainly fetch him a seat in heaven where he’d forever be surrounded by the choicest things of life ! My God, what a stupid, selfish, ignorant reason given by Abu Bakar and they call him a great disciple of Muhammad. After the passing away of Muhammad, Abu Bakar is said to have embarked upon a bloody, iconoclastic campaign to conquer and subjugate non-Islamic lands and in one instance when a conquered territor refused to pay jazziya to the Caliphate, Abu Bakar declared that he was prepared to shed their blood until they acknowledged their inferior status as “dhimmis” under Islamic rule. Besides, Ali and other ignorantly disciples propagated something as abnormal and pernicious as in-breeding in society…there is so much more to add….
Sri Aurobindo rightly declared that Islam is an imperfect, incomplete, fanatical faith. Kindly read the hundreds of papers and books published by scholars debunking the silly theories of the present version of the Quran.
Now, idol veneration is a form of symbolism and is essential for non-Yogis to relate to something as abstract as Godhead, God, Cosmic planes of consciousness and so on. How else can you relate to the Unseen? Are you a Yogi? The symbols of Durga, Ganesh, Kali and other cosmic powers are rich in meaning and educate the non-Yogi through their apt and powerful symbolism…Dr David Frawley has done a marvellous job in unravelling the symbolism of Vedic entities.
Ironically, Muhammad smashed the idols in the Shiva Shrine (Kaaba) but chose to retain the Shiv Linga (black stone in the Kaaba called Sangmay Aswad that’s another modified Sanskrit word coming from Sangey Ashwet or Non-White Stone). Muhammad not only retained the aniconic black stone but also hugged, kissed and wept over it. Omar in one place is reported to have said, ” I kiss, hug and shed tears over silly this black stone just because I’ve seen the Prophet doing so…’
Every faith has its own symbolism but Hinduism has the best, most varied and most profound symbolism that seek to educate the non-initiate into the arcana of the Subtle.
Tat Tvam Asi: THAt Thou Art !!!
238. Kalyan Krishnan | August 10, 2008 at 5:03 am
Confused I am, this I don’t deny. And my knowledge is borrowed, second hand knowledge.
I am curious too and haven’t lost my sense of wonder.
The Muslims as a group has fascinated me a lot. I have argued and debated with many Muslims at a personal level. Nothing public. Mostly with Muslim friends.
I have now realized that they don’t follow the Quranic principles. The biggest shirk they commit is when they take the Hadiths as a companion to the Word of God. The entire Muslim religion that we find around is based on the Hadiths. They hold aloft the Qur’an to proclaim their authenticity.
People like Zakir Naik is an outright fraud and he uses his energy in a very subtle manner. He is rather too clever. And then when I see the hand-clapping Muslims thronging his lectures, it still sends a shiver down my spines.
No one can beat Zakir Naik because he uses convoluted logic that intelligent people shun. For example, in a debate involving vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism he says that alcohol and tobacco are vegetarian products. And those thronging the halls clap at such mouthing. Man, what more can one say about this person and his followers. But no doubt, his lectures used to provide such comic relief!
But one can beat him if a condition is laid that he should quote from nowhere but the Qur’an to back-up his claims. 39.23 of Qur’an) says, “God has revealed the most beautiful hadith “.
And then in 44.2 it is revealed that “By the Book that makes things clear”.
So the question of referring to any other second hand resource like the hadiths shouldn’t arise at all because it is against the Word of God.
The very pillars of the Muslim faith that we see today stands upon this crumbly foundation and once you remove that the entire edifice is going to come tumbling down. Satan will stand defeated and be shamed.
True Islam will prevail in its rightful place – the heart – and there will be peace on Earth.
But true “Muslims” will still insist that the Qur’an needs supplements in the form of the hadiths to be understood, which simply results in disbelieving what God says in the Qur’an, especially at suach places as 42:13, 6:114, 16:89, 29:51, 45:18 42:13, and 42:21.
Maybe Qur’an doesn’t contain subtle philosophical insights for which the seeker may have to refer to the Vedas, but it is indeed a complete instruction manual for the whole of Mankind.
239. Kalyan Krishnan | August 10, 2008 at 7:23 am
Probably, my last word on the Qur’an:
In 5:92, God says, “And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is (incumbent) on Our messenger”
And in 24:54 He say, “Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the messenger but clear delivering”
Also in 64:12 He says that, “And obey Allah and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger devolves only the clear delivery”
It is very clear from the above Ayats that ‘Obey the Messenger’ means to obey the message he is delivering. And what is he delivering but the Qur’an!! The Prophet is teaching, preaching, explaining and living by the Qur’an and not the hadiths. Hadiths were created by humans and not God. Islam is to be found only in the Qur’an and not the hadiths. And if you are following the Qur’an then following the hadiths is shirk – the most unforgivable sin against God. Following the hadiths is against follwoing the Qur’an.
This is the source of evil that we find attributed to the fair name of Islam.
Then Islam doesn’t ban free thinking. It doesn’t say don’t read the hadiths or the other scriptures or scriptures of the other faiths. It says it doesn’t need companions to sustain it. It is self sustained. This is what I am trying to impress. Therefore, Qur’an is not the source of evil. Personally, I don’t see any reason to think it is distorted either. Inspite of what history says of Uthman having destroyed the other compilations. The Qur’an doesn’t contain world destroying evil. The Qur’an is Pure, Complete, and Perfect in the message it delivers.
And by just following this message of God, Mohammed stands glorified as commanded in 33.56
Well, one may continue to read the hadiths but they shouldn’t be glorified to the status of companions to the Word of God and shouldn’t be brought up anytime we discuss the Word of God. The last and final source for the clearance of any doubts regarding what God requires of us on Earth should be the Word of God Himself as delivered to Mankind by the Prophet.
240. Joel Pastakia | August 10, 2008 at 11:37 am
Kalyan says:
1) “Maybe the Qur’an doesn’t contain subtle philosophical insights for which the seeker may have to refer to the Vedas, but it is indeed a complete instruction manual for the whole of Mankind.”
Joel : Sure, the Quran doesn’t contain the subtle philosophical insights of the Vedas. All that it contains are a set of ordinary moral codes and a few dos and donts regarding matters such as worship of God and following the Prophet (Muhammad). Not one of these commands is original but are as old as thinking humanity.
2) “Then Islam doesn’t ban free thinking. It doesn’t say don’t read the hadiths or the other scriptures or scriptures of the other faiths. It says it doesn’t need companions to sustain it. It is self sustained. This is what I am trying to impress. Therefore, Qur’an is not the source of evil..”
Joel: Wrong. Islam limits free inquiry into diverse sources knowledge or anything that exceeds the shallow teachings of the Quran which is why it does not want Muslims to seek other companions. And, here, you’ve contradicted yourself by first stating that Islam doesn’t ban free thinking but then later you say that Islam being self-sufficient. Is it really self-sufficient or self-sustained in any way? Is it complete in all respects? Can it answer any and all questions ? Obviously not. That’s just a silly claim.
Boy, you really are confused. See, if Islam doesn’t ban free thinking, then logically it ought not to ban Muslims from seeking other companions or belief systems as by knowing more about things from varied sources the free thinker can enrich himself and plug the loopholes that are found liberally spread throughout the Quran.
The reason, the Quran, in true barbarian stye, bans the believer from referring to other companions fear that it may well lose its followers to other systems of belief or to other versions of God. Its myopia or the typical lowly attitude that it dsiplays is usually found in petty individuals or in authoritarian and barbaric belief systems that impose bans on their chamchaas so that they don’t dump them for superior sources or companions.
The Vedas openly acknowledge that what it has to offer is a mere map or outline with much more wisdom lying beyond its boundaries. The seeker is encouraged to verify via Yogic experience all that it claims and to seek even subtler truths that’re not found in the books (Vedas). Wow ! What a brilliant, truly free thinking, genuinely liberal approach.
Besides, the Vedas preach secularism of the sublimest order with the repeated command to accept every companion (multiple aspects of the Divine) unlike the present version of the Quran that teaches something as divisive, rabid, anti-secular and evil as “Seek no other companion…”, ” I shall not worship what you worship….” and “Your religion to you, my religion to me.” No wonder with the diabolically anti-secular teachings such as these as found in the Quran, Muslims are the most intolerant lot on earth.
Further, look at the silly claim made by the idiotic Quran that it is a perfect book which is why it is claimed by aplogists like Kalyan that it forbids its ignorant followers from seeking companions (knowledge from other belief systems) – the reason being that the idiot (Uthman) who inserted this warning into the Quran did not want Muslims to ditch the Quran by running after other sources of knowledge that could be (and are definitely) far superior to the trite teachings of the Quran.
You say that the Quran is self-sustained, pure, perfect or complete but then again you contradict yourself when you say that it doesn’t contain the subtle philosophical insights of the Vedas. Shouldn’t a complete/perfect book contain everything?
3) “The last and final source for the clearance of any doubts regarding what God requires of us on Earth should be the Word of God Himself as delivered to Mankind by the Prophet.”
Joel : How do you know that the Quran is the final source? If this was true then it contradicts all your previous statements about the Quran not being on par with the Vedas where deep philosophical insights are conncerned. If the Quran is the last source, how come it cannot match up to far older scriptures like the Vedas, Upanishads, Buddhist books, etc? Shouldn’t the last source (Quran) have exceeded these non-Islamc books in content, wisdom or knowledge? But, instead, what we find in the Quran is recycled knowledge borrowed from older sources with a lot of silly stuff that is its unique contibution to humanity blindly following which the Muslim Ummah has fallen far behind the rest of the world in every constructive endeavor.
I can rip apart every verse from the Quran in minutes and show you that what it says is neither perfect, complete, original nor penetrating. But, this is not the place for that.
Please note that Prophets far more potent than Muhammad have arsen before as well as after him (Muhammad).
Prophets will keep coming with finer and finer solutions until the earth consciousness and humanity are perfected.
By the way, how come this perfected Book (Quran) preaches irrational dualism instead of the superior monism ? The God of Islam ( the lowly Sagun Brahman) is extra-cosmic and some-how-or-the-other creates out of nothing and with his contrasting human traits manages the universe. This is dualism in its crudest form that revolves around an inferior personal God that’s found in the Quran.
Muhammad was perfect but His divine teachings have been perverted (due to alterations, misinterpretations, editing) by his disciples.
Kalyan, you come across as a deluded man whose mind has come under “satanic” influences to the extent that you’ve become a petty apologist for unnatural teachings like those inanities and trite messages found in the Quran. I pray that the attack by the adverse beings of the vital world on your mind and nervous system stop so that the dark cloud that’s throttling your faculties and obscuring your vision lift at the earliest or else I sincerely fear that you may soon end up possessed by these evil vital entities (if you are not already) that’ll soon cause you to enter a mental asylum or commit suicide. The terribly confused and patchy manner of all your posts have revealed this much to me about you. Take care. I sincerely mean it.
Joel, Suraj, Nishant, Balbir, James and 4 others.
241. Joel Pastakia | August 10, 2008 at 12:36 pm
CORRECTED MESSAGE:
Kalyan says:
1) “Maybe the Qur’an doesn’t contain subtle philosophical insights for which the seeker may have to refer to the Vedas, but it is indeed a complete instruction manual for the whole of Mankind.”
Joel : Sure, the Quran doesn’t contain the subtle philosophical insights of the Vedas. All that it contains are a set of ordinary moral codes and a few dos and donts regarding matters such as worship of God and following the Prophet (Muhammad). Not one of these commands is original but are as old as thinking humanity.
2) “Then Islam doesn’t ban free thinking. It doesn’t say don’t read the hadiths or the other scriptures or scriptures of the other faiths. It says it doesn’t need companions to sustain it. It is self sustained. This is what I am trying to impress. Therefore, Qur’an is not the source of evil..”
Joel: Wrong. Islam limits free inquiry into diverse sources of knowledge or into anything that exceeds the shallow teachings of the Quran which is why it does not want Muslims to seek other companions. And, here, you’ve contradicted yourself by first stating that Islam doesn’t ban free thinking but then later you say that Islam is self-sufficient or self-sustained. Is it really self-sufficient or self-sustained in any way? Is it complete in all respects? Can it answer any and all questions ? Obviously not. That’s just a silly claim.
Boy, you really are confused. See, if Islam doesn’t ban free thinking, then logically it ought not to ban Muslims from seeking other companions or belief systems as by knowing more about things from varied sources the free thinker can enrich himself and plug the loopholes that are found liberally spread throughout the Quran.
The reason, the Quran, in true barbarian stye, bans the believer from referring to other companions is fear that it may well lose its followers to other systems of belief or to other versions of God. Its myopia or the typical lowly attitude that it dsiplays is usually found in petty individuals or in authoritarian and barbaric belief systems that impose bans on their chamchaas so that they don’t dump them for superior sources or companions.
The Vedas openly acknowledge that what it has to offer is a mere map or outline with much more wisdom lying beyond its boundaries. The seeker is encouraged to verify via Yogic experience all that it claims and to seek even subtler truths that’re not found in the books (Vedas). Wow ! What a brilliant, truly free thinking, genuinely liberal approach.
Besides, the Vedas preach secularism of the sublimest order with the repeated command to accept every companion (multiple aspects of the Divine) unlike the present version of the Quran that teaches something as divisive, rabid, anti-secular and evil as “Seek no other companion…”, ” I shall not worship what you worship….” and “Your religion to you, my religion to me.” No wonder with the diabolically anti-secular teachings such as these as found in the Quran, Muslims are the most intolerant lot on earth.
Further, look at the silly claim made by the idiotic Quran that it is a perfect book which is why it is claimed by aplogists like Kalyan that it forbids its ignorant followers from seeking companions (other versions of God or knowledge from other belief systems) – the reason being that the idiot (Uthman) who inserted this warning into the Quran did not want Muslims to ditch the Quran by running after other versions of God or sources of knowledge that could be (and are definitely) far superior to the trite teachings of the Quran.
You say that the Quran is self-sustained, pure, perfect or complete but then again you contradict yourself when you say that it doesn’t contain the subtle philosophical insights of the Vedas. Shouldn’t a complete/perfect book contain everything?
3) “The last and final source for the clearance of any doubts regarding what God requires of us on Earth should be the Word of God Himself as delivered to Mankind by the Prophet.”
Joel : How do you know that the Quran is the final source? If this is true then it contradicts all your previous statements about the Quran not being on par with the Vedas where deep philosophical insights are conncerned. If the Quran is the last source, how come it cannot match up in subtle aspects to far older scriptures like the Vedas, Upanishads, Buddhist books, etc? Shouldn’t the last source (Quran) have exceeded these non-Islamc books in content, wisdom or knowledge? But, instead, what we find in the Quran is recycled knowledge borrowed from older sources with a lot of silly stuff that is its unique contibution to humanity… blindly following which the Muslim Ummah has fallen far behind the rest of the world in every constructive endeavor.
I can rip apart every verse from the Quran in minutes and show you that what it says is neither perfect, complete, original nor penetrating. But, this is not the place for that.
Please note that Prophets far more potent than Muhammad have arisen before as well as after him (Muhammad).
Prophets will keep coming with finer and finer solutions until the earth consciousness and humanity are perfected.
By the way, how come this perfected Book (Quran) preaches irrational dualism instead of the superior monism ? The God of Islam ( the lowly Sagun Brahman) is extra-cosmic and some-how-or-the-other creates out of nothing and with his contrasting human traits manages the universe. This is dualism in its crudest form that revolves around an inferior personal God that’s found in the Quran.
Muhammad was perfect but His divine teachings have been perverted (due to alterations, misinterpretations, editing) by his disciples.
Kalyan, you come across as a deluded man whose mind has come under “satanic” influences to the extent that you’ve become a petty apologist for unnatural teachings like those inanities and trite messages found in the Quran. I pray that the attack by the adverse beings of the vital world on your mind and nervous system stops so that the dark cloud that’s throttling your faculties and obscuring your vision lift at the earliest or else I sincerely fear that you may soon end up possessed by these evil vital entities (if you are not already) that’ll soon cause you to enter a mental asylum or commit suicide. The terribly confused and patchy manner of all your posts have revealed this much to me about you. Take care. I sincerely mean it.
Joel, Suraj, Nishant, Balbir, James and 4 others.
242. Kalyan Krishnan | August 10, 2008 at 2:08 pm
OK. I haven’t anything to add to what I have already said. And so now I quit this forum. But I’ll keep coming back to read the other posts.
Believe me it was quite an experience to be here and I have added much to my limited faculty. I can also see that your concern is genuine.
So my final goodbye to you all here. Be happy and be enlightened!
243. Nidhi Shah Parikh | August 10, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Mr Kalyan Krishnan I just read that u’ve written that the Koran doesn’t need companions since it is self-sustained. If this is so then why does the Koran contain borrowed or second hand information that has been shown by various scholars to have been lifted from older holy books? Don’t you think that a self-sustaining book should contain unique or original information? Since the Koran does not contain anything new but only has old, borrowed information filling its pages therefore it definitely cannot be called a self-sustaining book.
You must be hallucinating to make such a claim though I understand that many juvenile holy books make very tall claims to attract large numbers of followers. Empty vessels make more noise !
You have also written: “Maybe Qur’an doesn’t contain subtle philosophical insights for which the seeker may have to refer to the Vedas, but it is indeed a complete instruction manual for the whole of Mankind.”
You have written this right? Now, if earlier you say that the Koran is self sustaining and perfect then I wonder why the Koran does not contain every bit of information under the sun and why would one have to refer to the Vedas or Tripittakas for higher or subtle knowledge?
So, friends, since the Koran does not possess unique or original information, since it does not contain answers to even averagely complex questions (leave aside providing answers to all questions) and since it lacks the subtle philosophical knowledge of the Vedas, it can certainly be declared that the Koran is not perfect, not original, not self sustaining and not a complete instruction manual for the whole of Mankind as Kalyan the big fool claims.
I remember the Koran stating that Allah has no partners and that those who equate other Gods with Allah are sinners. But, is Allah the only version of God or is Allah the highest God? Joel said and I too have read that Allah is an original Sanskrit word for God found in Vedas. Thus, with the Koran, even the name for God is borrowed. And what kind of a God is Allah? He has no form but has attributes and that too all human traits. Can this entity said to be God? God is not anthropomorphic like Allah. I think what Joel said earlier about Allah being a lower manifestation of the Supreme Brahman is true since the Supreme Brahman is the Ultimate Absolute that has no name, attributes, is beyond form and formlessness and is also beyond action and non-action. The Supreme Brahman is the SOURCE of all and supports in a supreme way the working of ITS manifestations that includes the personal God (Allah, Bhagwan, Jehovah etc). The personal God is the one who acts, judges, punishes, rewards as per one’s karmas like a caretaker or manager. By this yardstick, Allah is not perfect or the Ultimate Source but he is just a lower manifestation of the Supreme Absolute (Brahman, The Foundation & Source of all). Koran does not have all this advanced knowledge but simply has information on ordinary ethics, hollow rituals and a lot of threat about how kafirs will be burnt in hell.
Kalyan, you are blind and as said above by someone a moron whose mind is a mess and whose arguments are silly. Be careful and do not overstep the limit of stupidity bucause then you may end up – as remarked above by soemone – in a mental hospital or you may commit suicide. I knew someone like you who would twist meanings and words to get across nonsensical theories, finally he met a bad end.
244. Kalyan Krishnan | August 11, 2008 at 7:05 am
OK, I comeback because the above post is directed at me.
I can understand all that Joel and Nidhi have written because of my Hindu background. Try to explain such stuff to a Muslim; someone who is unfortunate to have been deeply conditioned during childhood by madrasas and family alike. Just listen to Zakir Naik and all those handclapping fellows! See what you get!
I have tried to be equable not apologetic. I tried to be in many shoes during discussions on this post. That’s all. Now I am pretty bored by this stuff. My brain refuses to convolute anymore and my fingers are stiff. Therefore, discussion on this topic beyond this is dead for me.
Please don’t direct your questions at me anymore. I take my bow and move out. Let discussions be on a general note or directed at others. You may quote me but don’t direct them at me for I may not answer again. I have had enough therefore I am out.
And finally, I am still very much a Hindu; a very tolerant Hindu who wants to live and let all others live. I am very much an idol worshiper and love visiting temples (not out of conditioning but to absorb all the positive energy radiated inside).
I dream of Babaji (mentioned in “Autobiography of a Yogi”) and plan to learn Kriya Yoga. I believe my Higher Dimensional existence is among the hallowed company of Babaji and his followers. At the moment, I have no idea of whatever that is. But I do know that there are many who visit his retreat in the Himalayas. Actor Rajnikanth is one.
I hope Babaji intervenes and saves me from being dumped into a mental asylum. Seriously! Because I too have this feeling that I am treading the thin line separating the sane from the insane.
I give myself two more years time before the true flowering of my real potential begins to take shape. We all are buds waiting for the right moment to come into full bloom. Till then…. Goodbye to you all.
245. nidhi shah parikh | August 11, 2008 at 11:27 am
Good riddance to bad rubbish. I wish the psycho loads of luck that he badly needs…otherwise he may commit suicide or end up in a paagal khaana.
Now, about tackling that other lunatic and anti-social element Zakir Naik, he can’t answer a single question on the basis of proof or sound reasoning because all that he can offer by way of “proofs” are those stupid verses from the Koran. There are scores of web sites that have dbeunked the teachings of the Koran.
But, really, what is there to debunk in the Koran when all that it contains is silly, common sense, borrowed and irrational information that was supposed to have been revealed to Muhammad by an invisible angel..
My what a nonsensical assumption that an invisible angel revealed third class, borrowed information to an inspired individual which blind believers take as the word of God (Allah) – a pre Islamic tribal God who the early Arabs believed was associated with Hubal the moon God and this tribal deity Allah was supposed to have three daughters (Al Lat, Al Uzza, Al Manat)…..Wonderful stories all these religious books contain.
Who has seen an angel? Has anyone? What about you Joel since you have come up with some deep philosophy while showing that lunatic (Kalyan) his place. But, now after soundly thrashing the views of guys with unstable minds, Joel, tell me if you know anyone who has seen an angel? Or have seen one? How do you know whether angels exist? C’mon, I want to know if angels exists, what do they look like, do they really communicate trash (as found in the Koran) to hallucinating individuals?
246. X-MAN | August 12, 2008 at 4:39 pm
“Mr Kalyan Krishnan I just read that u’ve written that the Koran doesn’t need companions since it is self-sustained. If this is so then why does the Koran contain borrowed or second hand information that has been shown by various scholars to have been lifted from older holy books? Don’t you think that a self-sustaining book should contain unique or original information?”
ha ha ha……………… truth remains truth …. you cannot change a truth to false to make your book unique …. sun rises in the east … and this has been truth since beginning … if you write in your book that it rises from west THEN indeed your book will become UNIQUE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since, human is human …. the guidance to it will be almost “similar” through the ages
As far as Quran is concerned , it contains some things of previous revelations also… but not entirely. It has many unique things too… GOD is same throughout the world and throughout the ages, since the beginning to the end…… And he has sent guidance to all the people and in every age….
247. X-MAN | August 12, 2008 at 4:51 pm
to kalyan:
“No one can beat Zakir Naik because he uses convoluted logic that intelligent people shun. For example, in a debate involving vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism he says that alcohol and tobacco are vegetarian products. And those thronging the halls clap at such mouthing. Man, what more can one say about this person and his followers. But no doubt, his lectures used to provide such comic relief!”
Yes Dr. Zakir is very intelligent as u rightly said … and some people simply can’t get that logic … intelligence level is different for different people…. if u have watched that video carefully if open mindedness then it is easy to grasp ….He clearly said that
his opponent( i forgot his name) is acting more like a lawyer and giving unscientific logic, but he is doing contrary…. so he gave that example to prove that even he can come up with such logics and shut his mouth easily…. But there shouldn’t have been this confusion becuse he clearly said this many times in his speech… so the conclusion is one must listen with open mind
248. X-MAN | August 12, 2008 at 4:53 pm
correction : “but he is doing contrary” … “claiming” instead of “doing”
249. Joel Pastakia | August 13, 2008 at 3:45 am
X-Man:
By simply parroting book verses doesn’t make Zakir Naik, you or anyone else clever or right.
Any lunatic can quote book verses but where are the proofs and sound reasoning?
I had asked you several questions in the past? Where are the answers supported by proofs?
To add to those questions, here are some more:
1) Is it possible that Muhammad split the moon? How? What is the proof that such things can be done?
2) Muhammad rode a winged horse (Buraq) to heaven? Is this possible?
3) Where are what is heaven? How come your Islamic heaven is non-physical but yet it is constituted of gross physical substances like rivers of milk, honey, wine, sluts (houris), gays (ghilmans), gardens, etc? I repeat of what subtle elements are the heavens/hells made up of? How do they connect with gross matter? Where and what are these places?
4) What is an angel? Of what subtle materials/forces is angel made of? Do you really believe that an invisble angel appeared to Muhammad and revealed some trashy verses to him? If so, what is the factual basis of this assumption? Tell us what is an angel ?
5) By the way, in hell, the Quran preaches that fire exists. Does it mean physical fire? If so, how come a non-physical place like hell contains physical fire? Does this (fictional) non-physical hell contain physical substances like logs of wood/coal/gas and a supporter of combustion like oxygen to ignite and sustain the fire in hell? My, what nonsense has been preached by the Quran…
Does that idiotic book (Quran) containing 3rd class, borrowed information have any valid answer by way of proofs and sound reasonings? Does Zakir Naik have a valid explanation supported by evidence to back these silly teachings of the Quran?
We’re laughing at this ridiculous book and its stupid followers.
Well, answer all my preliminary questions supported by logic and proof. If the Quran can provide the proofs and logic to the above questions, then I will proceed to test the Quran with stiffer queries.
So, fool (X Man), come on give me valid answers backed by sound logic and proofs.
250. Joel Pastakia | August 13, 2008 at 3:57 am
In a debate involving vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism Dr Zakir Naik says that alcohol and tobacco are vegetarian products:
Yes, they are just as pus, blood, pork are non-veg products. Would you eat pork, snake meat, monkey brain, hyena steak, jackal balls and what not…
It has been proven that non-veg food is harmful for human health. Besides, veg products like alcolhol and tobacco have their valid medical uses too in surgery, potions, etc.
Hey, Zakir Naik forgot that natural alcohol is produced during fermentation in a whole range of veg as well as non-veg products, it naturally occurs in the blood and is also a bye-product of metabolism.
Did the Quran not know this simple fact about the natural presence of alcohol in fermented foods (veg and non veg), in blood and its production during metabolism? Shame on the Quran and Zakir Naik.
251. Joel Pastakia | August 13, 2008 at 4:03 am
X Man wrote: “ha ha ha……………… truth remains truth …. you cannot change a truth to false to make your book unique …. sun rises in the east … and this has been truth since beginning … if you write in your book that it rises from west THEN indeed your book will become UNIQUE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ”
Another instance of convoluted logic. Does the sun rise or set? It appears to rise and set in east and west respectively due to the rotation of the earth. Ignorant people think that the sun rises and sets or that the earth is flat.
True, a false book like the Quran can be compared to the fool’s wisdom of the so-called rising and setting of the sun.
Quran, I repeat is almost totally copied from earlier pagan and other older sources and the few ok things it offers are some ordinary moral teachings that every fool since earliest times knew.
252. X-MAN | August 13, 2008 at 12:46 pm
a fool tries to prove his point by giving such logics … now you are disputing over language…. havn’t you heard people talking “you are my heart, i love you” …. now persons like you will ask , how can a person be a heart … he is human
ok day and night happens due to rotation of the earth, but have you heard ever a scientist say to his wife , kid etc… “oh! earth has rotated, now get up????”
don’t twist things to prove your point… disputing over everyday jargon proves that your all actions are premeditated… your mind is blocked… so you can never reach truth… open your mind and see the world around
253. joel pastakia | August 13, 2008 at 1:59 pm
X Man: Stop bull shitting like the Quran. First, give me the answers backed by solid proofs and sound reasoning to the above questions on the substratal nature of heaven, hell, Buraq, soul, etc. If you can’t, as I know yopu can’t, then call it quits and don’t make a bigger fool of yourself and of that idiotic Quran on this forum.
254. joel pastakia | August 13, 2008 at 2:00 pm
CORRECTION:
X Man: Stop bull shitting like the Quran. First, give me the answers backed by solid proofs and sound reasoning to the above questions on the substratal nature of heaven, hell, Buraq, soul, etc. If you can’t, as I know you can’t, then call it quits and don’t make a bigger fool of yourself and of that idiotic Quran on this forum.
255. x-man | August 13, 2008 at 6:29 pm
ha.. ha.. your reaction is obvious … but i am enjoying it …. wat more proves you want??? kalyan is one of them .. anywez i came back to this forum to discuss smthing with kalyan … but its ok to have some tit bits with some others too..
256. x-man | August 13, 2008 at 7:44 pm
to “Kalyan Krishnan “:
you had a long argument/discussion with some persons , i went through few points and i would like to mention few things
“But true “Muslims” will still insist that the Qur’an needs supplements in the form of the hadiths to be understood, which simply results in disbelieving what God says in the Qur’an, especially at suach places as 42:13, 6:114, 16:89, 29:51, 45:18 42:13, and 42:21.
Maybe Qur’an doesn’t contain subtle philosophical insights for which the seeker may have to refer to the Vedas, but it is indeed a complete instruction manual for the whole of Mankind.”
1) I don’t know what do you mean here by subtle philosophical insights.
2) Second , the question is can we seek guidance from previous scriptures???
Well , for this let’s understand the process of coming Messengers of GOD and process of revelations.
A revelation or a Messenger didn’t come till the point, previous message or the teachings of previous Prophet was distorted beyond its ability to guide the human race. A Messenger or message only came when existing scripture became incapable of guiding, due to distortions etc… And that’s why we have no Messenger coming after Prophet Mohammed (pbuh), because Quran is intact and it will remain unchanged, undistorted till the end. ALLAH has taken responsibilty to safeguard it and i guess you may be knowing it.
Holy Quran, 15:9 – “Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur’an and indeed, We will be its guardian”
And hence any ancient scripture must have been distorted, so later scriptures and finally Holy Quran had to be revealed. So, if someone wants to depend on them for guidance, then it is dangerous. What we can do with the ancient scriptures, since they contain similar teachings, we can get the proof that indeed GOD has sent revealations to earlier ages and all nations as said in Holy Quran. Quran is Al-Furqan and yes complete for guidance. We can depend on it to find what is wrong in other ancient scriptures or what is right.
3) Now the question is that what is Hadith or Sunnah and do we need it?
Quran contains guidance, it contains directions. Guidance is of two types
(a) someone holds your fingers and teaches you everything
(b) He merely tells you what to do.
Quran contains both type of guidance. Somewhere it tell u what, when, where, how to do and some where it merely tells you what to do and guides you where to find the process for it.
For eg , Quran tells offer salah. How, and when we get only from Hadith. It tells give zakat, and again we get only from Hadith, its details. But it guides us to the place where we can get it
Holy Quran 33:21 : “There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an
excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who]
remembers Allah often. ”
The word pattern is used not convey that the Holy Prophet was on straight path. We get that from elsewhere. But to convey that his “METHOD” of doing things was excellent. And Hadith is that only, How the Holy Prophet
(pbuh) did everything and events tooks place while His struggle to establish truth.
So, referring to sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) is what has been asked by GOD himself.
And who else is a better teacher of the Quran than the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) himself. He did practically
everything ordered by ALLAH in Holy Quran. He demonstrated everything to us. So Hadith and Sunnah enjoy there own importance. A person who is a Muslim simply cannot ignore them and if someone ignores he is not a Muslim. Ofcourse, the “thumb rule”, if something appears contradicting with Holy Quran, reject it. It applies
to everything.
And yes … last but not the least Muslims still follow Quran only and your statistics of 90% needs to be revised by you. And yes we refer to Hadith wherever Quran orders us to.
257. x-man | August 13, 2008 at 7:53 pm
“By the way, in hell, the Quran preaches that fire exists. Does it mean physical fire? If so, how come a non-physical place like hell contains physical fire? Does this (fictional) non-physical hell contain physical substances like logs of wood/coal/gas and a supporter of combustion like oxygen to ignite and sustain the fire in hell? My, what nonsense has been preached by the Quran…”
Don’t worry when you will be thrown into it ( and you will be unless you return to the truth) you pursue your phd their
258. Kalyan Krishnan | August 14, 2008 at 2:48 am
X-man, please look at this:
“…O people of the Scripture, let us come to a common agreement between us and between you; that 1) we do not serve except God, and 2) do not set up anything at all with Him, and 3) that none of us takes each other as patrons besides God….”
From the The Message Ayat 3:64)
259. Kalyan Krishnan | August 14, 2008 at 2:52 am
Thank you DRV for allowing me back! I was unable to stand such bogus and inane content as provided by X-man. I follow my instinct and it is GOD for me. I look at everything from an instinctual point of view and am always ready to acknowledge my shortcomings. Even letting others say that I am a lunatic. I am only HUMAN!
260. Kalyan Krishnan | August 14, 2008 at 3:02 am
X-man,
You like all the other 90% deluded victims of satan have left the Way of God as ordained by Him.
But my sympathies are with you. The Test that you face is sterner than mine. But there is still time for you. Please devote your time studying the Qur’an instead of coming back here with your inane logic. Do you really think that God Almighty requires your help to defend Himself!
Dedicate yourself to the study of the Qur’an and nothing else. Thats what God requires of you. Its very clearly written in the Qur’an. If you further doubts, then lets debate – but let only Qur’an be the basis.
If it isn’t allowed here then lets create a blog at WordPress especially for this purpose.
“He demonstrated everything to us. So Hadith and Sunnah enjoy there own importance. A person who is a Muslim simply cannot ignore them and if someone ignores he is not a Muslim.”